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For weeks, people have been obsessing over the enforcement by the NYS Department of Education.
A much greater danger is about to take place this week. The NY Legislature is scheduled this week to pass legislation regarding child molestation that will extend the statute of limitations from age ( i think ) 22 to age 5t and, more importantly, provide for a 12 month period when anyone can file a lawsuit, regardless of when the alleged abuse took place.
This will bankrupt yeshivas. Even should they win every lawsuit ( doubtful ) how many yeshivas have the financial means to pay for the expensive legal bills to defend the accusations.This is baloney. The yeshivos have nothing to worry about. They’ll probably be a few miscontents filing suit, but it’ll be a drop in the bucket if even that. It wouldn’t be surprising if the number of suits against yeshivos in that 12 month window can be counted on one or two hands statewide.
And the reason for that isn’t simply because mesira and arkaos prohibit Jews from utilizing the non-Jewish courts, though that is certainly and obviously true. The primary reason it won’t happen is because the underlying issue of the activity being allowed to bring suit upon, namely molestation, is something that has always been a rarity in yeshivos.
The stupid mistake all these so-called advocates make, is assuming yeshivos and rabbonim are like the Catholic Church and priests. There’s no shaychus or remote comparison. The frum velt is so far from that problem (which doesn’t mean it completely doesn’t exist just that it is a rarity) that is laughable when those fools make such a comparison. Even, l’havdil, the Protestants don’t have anywhere close to the extent of the problem as the Catholics. The obvious reason is the crazy and unworkable Catholic clergy policy of celibacy. Which is, essentially, what exaggerates their problem to the extent its proven itself.
So we’ll open new yeshivos. Not a problem.
Joseph, even if it never happened, that doesn’t stop malcontents from suing.
There will be many disappointed lawyers (they typically get a third of any judgements, and often more). The Catholic Church is a single legal entity, so that the assets of the whole can be used to pay for damages committed by any part. Their clergy are employees of the Church, meaning the Church as a whole is liable for misconduct by indviduals, even if they had no control over them, Also the Catholic Church has large endowments and large amounts of tangible assets. In legalese, they have “deep pockets”. This attracts lawyers looking to make money.
Jews, along with most Protestant and Muslim organizations, are highly decentralized. Even if one corporation (e.g. one school, one shul, one yeshiva, etc.) incurs massive debts, the judgement creditor can only look to that entity. While a given organization might be forced to file for bankruptcy, it will generate minimal payouts for the lawyers. And frum organizations tend to live “hand to mouth”, so there are no large endownents to attach. For all purposes, our community is “judgement-proof”.
One should remember that the first thing a lawyer looks into when considering a lawsuit is not “justice” or “facts” but “will I get paid”, and suing Jewish schools is not potentially lucrative enough to attract tort lawyers. Frei Jews may spend their own money to sue as a form of harassment, but that is hardly an existential threat.
That’s true. But my opinion is that it’ll be mostly a bust, as far as yeshivos are concerned, and the 12 months will pass with mostly a whimper.
Another variable here is that there is a very, very minimal amount of proof that one can offer regarding old cases, perhaps with witnesses not even being alive to provide testimony. There are inaccurate memories, and all the “metoos” cannot make fabrication become strong evidence. That’s a sort of natural “statute of limitations” that is built in to the passage of time.
Another consideration is that there is a strong argument to make for those institutions that have a policy that protects perpetrators, which could be a target of liability. I doubt most yeshivos have any such policy. In the absence of that, there could be a potential for personal liability for the faculty or staff involved, and there is limited projected gain. How many of these are still alive, and how many of the yeshivos are still under the control of these alleged protectors.
While I am all in favor of “let the guilty pay”, I agree with several of the commenters here that minimize the risk.
A yeshiva that allowed abusers to get away with their deeds, is no different than a yeshiva with a Rosh Yeshiva who drove to mcDonalds for a cheeseburger on Shabbos.
Sorry but some sins are unforgiveable and the torah is tainted in such places
zahavasdad: But the important thing to note in this case, is that the Rosh Yeshiva is probably judgement proof, as is the yeshiva. The statute is about allowing civil cases, and is very important for the lawyers who earn their parnassah from the “cut” they get, but in these cases, the only lawyer getting paid will be the bankruptcy lawyer, and they work relatively cheap. The statute in question was designed to improve the profitabililty of the “tort bar” (who in return generously contribute to the Democrats in the legislature), but that is of little interest to us since suing frum Jews is not a way to get rich.
ZD:
Let’s play out the following scenario. Someone now in their 40’s claims to have been victimized while in yeshiva Ploni Almoni. This alleged crime occurred more than 30 years ago. The perpetrator is no longer alive, nor are any of the administrators or principals of that yeshiva. The yeshiva has none of the faculty from that era, and is no longer located in the same part of town. In essence, it is vastly different from what existed back then. This yeshiva has also embarked on a serious mission to insure safety, with placing cameras everywhere, doing background checks on all of their hires, and providing advanced and continuous training for all adults who are employed there.
The case goes to court, where there is nothing besides the word of the alleged victim. The matter is not being denied, as there is virtually no one who was present then who could remember anything at all. Now, do we hold this yeshiva responsible or not? Shall we bankrupt the yeshiva because it bears the same name as the one allegedly involved? Do we have reason to believe there was responsibility or cover up, while it is just as likely that no one was aware of anything?
I have zero problem with the Rosh Hayeshiva who drove to eat McDonald’s on Friday night getting the Divinely determined consequences for his chilul Shabbos. And someone who committed the crime of victimization or protected it being liable. But how does that relate to the above scenario? I suspect that much what could emerge in this 12 month window will be almost precisely this.
“The Little I Know” — Think of the Plaintiff’s lawyer. He might end up spending tens of thousands of dollars out of his own pocket to hire expert witnesses, and litigates, and he ends up a judgement against a yeshiva that turns out to have no endowments, no assets, rents its building, and has more debts than assets. The best he can hope for is to be at the head on the queue when the yeshiva files Chapter 7 (and probably the faculty would get their back pay before the lawyer). The landlord then rents to a new yeshiva (which perhaps bought the trademark to the old yeshiva’s name, and hired the same teachers).
With Catholics or Episcopalians (Anglicans), there is a large corporate body with endownments and oodles of real estate (church buildings) to seize when executing a judgement,but with Yidden the lawyer is confronted with yeshivos that are perpetually one step away from filing for bankruptcy.
Have pity for the lawyer. A third of nothing, is nothing, which is what he’ll get suing Jewish schools.
So you are in favor of the yeshiva “Getting away with it” in order words because some lawyer will profit
And the yeshivas did cover it up and not only that, many of these victims went OTD. All the averios of these victims squarely belong on the yeshivas for covering up the misdeeds. Sorry I dont want such Zchus from that Torah. its a Mitzvah Goreres Averiah
ZD, they aren’t necessarily the same people.
The greater danger is that we allow yeshivas at any cost and no matter what scuples to run one. if we run a yeshivas without scruples, we lose the whole point of the torah lifesyle
It’s not the people who are being accused who will suffer, it’s the parents of the students currently enrolled, and the community as a whole.
Most Yeshivas are privately owned (A few are non-profit corporations like YU, run by a board of directors) but that is the minority, Even of the management at the time of the crime is not around, their heirs likely are
The community is wrong to protect these places and that is a greater threat.
An Ohr LaGoyim means just that and I take it serious, it means no crimes that even the goyim look down upon.
And Yes I take a very hard line on this issue. I know victims and their lives have been damaged and it was worse for them when the Yeshiva covered it up or worse . This is not the torah way. Sometimes messes need to be cleaned up
ZD:
You have missed the point completely. These lawsuits benefit absolutely no one. The victims, as long as we are discussing the real ones, have suffered whatever they did. The projected compensation will not remove or relieve any of the PTSD symptoms, nor will it provide a miracle to those who went OTD. Money doesn’t fix any of that. Punishing those who erred long ago – that’s nothing beyond revenge, and the issur of taking nekomoh. It will not benefit the lawyers on either end, as noted earlier. It will not create the prevention programs that are needed. In essence, it feeds the lowest of one’s passions.
I am not defending perpetrators. If they are guilty of the crimes, let them do their time in prison. No mercy. But precisely how will huge lawsuits help anyone here? If this makes you believe you are accomplishing something, I am happy for you. But reality is that there is nothing here but potential for harm to many and benefit to no one.
I applaud your advocacy. But you must provide solutions, not something like “Sue their pants off – what else is there to do?”
Sometimes suing the pants off someone will prevent someone else from doing the same. Its a deterant
What it accomplishes is as follows:life isnt always and therefore desparate measures sometimes have to take place to teach the masses a lesson.
למען ישמעו ויראו,ולא יזידון עודIn general money is used to pay for all sorts of damages to someone. If someone is killed, Will $5 million bring them back ? Of course not, but that doesnt mean the person doesnt deserve the money
And sometimes they might need it, Someone sufferent from PTSD from being a victims has medical bills that need to be paid for, the money from the offending yeshiva can help pay for that
TLIK – These lawsuits benefit absolutely no one. The victims, as long as we are discussing the real ones, have suffered whatever they did. The projected compensation will not remove or relieve any of the PTSD symptoms, nor will it provide a miracle to those who went OTD. …. Punishing those who erred long ago – that’s nothing beyond revenge, and the issur of taking nekomoh.
I just need to state that I could not disagree with this more. If you discuss this with those in that situation, as I would have assumed you have, you would know that this is absolutely not true.
Many of the people who went OTD as a result of abuse did so mostly because the abuser was supported. If those in power had done more to take the perpetrator down, that wouldn’t have undone the damage, but the victim might not have lost faith in all religious people.
DISCLAIMER: The OTD factor is probably the least important part of this discussion.
ZD:
You wrote: “Sometimes suing the pants off someone will prevent someone else from doing the same. Its a deterant”
I disagree. If you know anything about the perpetrators of these crimes, they act impulsively, and do not make calculations about the consequences. They operate under the delusion that they will not get caught, and will get away from everything. It’s not about a calculation that the “system” will somehow protect them. Secondly, your statement “suing the pants off someone” implies that this is based on creating damage, not repairing a situation. As much as I detest molesters and wish them no good, “suing the pants off” is the wrong solution to a real problem.
Next, you wrote: “In general money is used to pay for all sorts of damages to someone. If someone is killed, Will $5 million bring them back ? Of course not, but that doesnt mean the person doesnt deserve the money
And sometimes they might need it, Someone sufferent from PTSD from being a victims has medical bills that need to be paid for, the money from the offending yeshiva can help pay for that”
I cannot imagine why you feel that the victim deserves the money. For what? I agree that the therapy and related expenses should be compensated. Money serves no other role. If you are looking to salivate at the announcement of huge dollar figures, get a life.
T2T:
You wrote: “What it accomplishes is as follows:life isnt always and therefore desparate measures sometimes have to take place to teach the masses a lesson.
למען ישמעו ויראו,ולא יזידון עוד”Criminals get their due by going to prison. The past several years delivered several extremely harsh sentences for offenders. If that doesn’t serve as a deterrent, million dollar court awards won’t either.
Syag:
I wish to acquaint you with something found in the professional literature. The consequences imposed on the offenders (including monetary awards and jail sentences) have no clinical effect on the victims. That does not say that offenders should not get locked up. That serves to protect potential victims. And I agree that we can throw away the key. But this provides the moment of sweet revenge, not real benefit. That’s the scientific literature.
RebYidd:
The protecting of the offender by a yeshiva and community might well be a factor in the OTD. But those victims I spoke to identified the main issue was the role of the perpetrator as someone who should have represented kedusha, and had no problem exploiting someone for their moment of gratification. The confusion began long before anyone reported that there was an offense.
All that differentiates between the OTD factor and the other negative consequences of the abuse is that this one is clearly not measurable in dollars. At least one can place dollar figures on the years of therapy that the victim needs. And I still say that this should be compensated. But this has nothing to do with bankrupting anyone.
I wish to acquaint you with something found in the professional literature.
Yeah, no offense but i can aquaint you with some professional literature that says dinosaurs walked the esrth a million years ago and supports the big bang theory. If you need to back up your claims on tjis topic by using professional literature, you may want to do a bit more personal research among some survivors. I appreciate your intent but i believe you are misinformed or undereducated.
Tlik – the deterrent is to the protectors and deniers, not thr molestor
You find SUING to be a problem? If people were molested, let them sue the yeshiva, rebbi, and everyone involved out of existence.
The little i know:
Before a person can properly heal from trauma they need to feel safe. Children who are abused by an adult figure even once they are adults will still be very frighted by that person (will often feel like a little child again). Very often when their perpetrator is in jail it can provide the victims a safe feeling that will allow them to heal easier.
The way that children react to trauma vs adults is very different.
Although knowing how severely their perpetrator was punished (or at all)might have no clinical effect, having their perpetrator locked up will definitely help with healing.It definatly is a greater danger that people are more concerned about Yeshivas who committed offenses should be more worried about being sued than the crime they committed
AnonJ:
Sorry, but your comment smells more of greed than helping trauma victims. “There’s got to be money somewhere. Find it, and I’ll look for a way to demand it.”
You and others have still failed to prove that the ones targeted in a lawsuit are actually responsible for anything. I noted earlier, let the guilty pay. But those not guilty cannot be subjected to lawsuits, regardless of how the victim feels.
Syag:
I have researched this subject quite thoroughly, via literature and victims/survivors. I reach my conclusions after study, not looking for support for my contentions.
I’ve never been a big fan of a certain former DINO state assemblyman but about an hour or two ago, @DovHikind tweeted as follows:
“….I applaud the NYS legislature for passing the “Child Victims Act”. It’s a new day for victims of abuse who can now get a measure of justice. But it’s only the first step on a long path to healing”
.
NOYB:
I do not disagree about lawsuits. They must be targeted at those actually responsible. The trouble with the new legislation is that it allows old cases to be basis for suit. As noted earlier, there is no corroborating evidence or witnesses that are likely to exist on old cases, and the tendency to believe anything that claims victimization today is beyond the morally acceptable. There are true cases of abuse. But this window allows for fake ones, even invites them. And no amount of denial will stand in front of someone that claims victimization – which is inconsistent with halacha and secular law. There needs to be proof before conviction. Today’s world says otherwise.
If I am struggling to pay my mortgage and credit card bills, all I need to do is hire a lawyer to sue all my past yeshivos, and viola, debts paid. That’s the predicted result of the present legislation.
I would have assumed a poster defending enabling child molestation was just a troll if it weren’t for the alarming number of people who apparently agree. This thread is David Duke’s wildest fantasy.
Seriously, guys, get a life. Your holy yeshiva is not worth more than children’s well being. You’re making us sound worse than the Catholic church.
places:
The literature refers to the healing process as clinical benefit. And your suggestion is not supported by the research. Perhaps you would like to believe that the healing is quicker and better, but science says it ain’t so. There are good reasons to lock up a perpetrator. But it is not for the victims, as much as they may relish in the perpetrator’s misery. It is to protect the public. This matter was the focus of the studies, and your hypothesis was not supported. Your logic is okay, but the facts are not that way.
ZD:
You wrote: “It definatly is a greater danger that people are more concerned about Yeshivas who committed offenses should be more worried about being sued than the crime they committed”
You are not thinking straight about this. I believe that everyone is concerned about the commission of an offense. You seem to suggest that the yeshivos are evil houses of abuse. Now, I am one who has a record of throwing the book at chinuch for a lot. And I am directly familiar with some who turned away from abuse, covered it up, and allowed faculty with problems to continue at their jobs. These yeshivos disgust me. I have yet to meet a yeshiva that has a destructive policy. Their policies are generally good, and some are better. There may be individuals who do not follow them, and they expose kids to danger. And we can talk of menahalim, rebbeiim, teachers, and other employees who misbehave, crossing lines of abuse of various kinds. These individuals are personally liable. Go sue them. The yeshiva does not officially condone abuse, and if one alleges they do, prove that in court.
I suggest that the liability, if it is true and exists, is on the individuals. The bloodthirsty and greedy attitude here will not heal anyone, nor will it deter anyone. Show me support for such attitudes anywhere in the Torah.
NCB, nobody is defending enabling child molestation. Total straw man.
I actually dont think you can sue an employee who committed a crime while on the Job (According to NY Law). I think Halacha might be different, but if someone is OTD I dont think they really care about Halacha, and it probably wont help someone’s religious observence if they are told by some Beis Din, Sorry you cant sue the Yeshiva who allowed someone to Molest you because only the Molester is liable , not the Yeshiva.
I never said Yeshivas are destructive or should be shut down, Only those that enabled molestors shut be shut down. if your yeshiva is clean, then you have nothing to worry about . Those are the yeshivas we want, That is the torah we want
Heittle i know says:
….And we can talk of menahalim, rebbeiim, teachers, and other employees who misbehave, crossing lines of abuse of various kinds. These individuals are personally liable. Go sue them. The yeshiva does not officially condone abuse, and if one alleges they do, prove that in court.
————————————–
So you sgree we should take them to court if we believe they were psrt of the abuse?
Well how do u propose a victim take them to court without suing them first?The literature refers to the healing process as clinical benefit. And your suggestion is not supported by the research. Perhaps you would like to believe that the healing is quicker and better, but science says it ain’t so.
Do you know how insulting it is to pretend literature knows better than the people it writes about? So you read something and liked it, great. That does not give you license to say others motives are about revenge. You make no sense.
There are good reasons to lock up a perpetrator. But it is not for the victims, as much as they may relish in the perpetrator’s misery. It is to protect the public. This matter was the focus of the studies, and your hypothesis was not supported. Your logic is okay, but the facts are not that way.
Your words are an insult to survivors everywhere. To say they relish in the perpetrator’s misery is just sick. To say it is not for the victims is just ignorant. For people who live in fear of bumping into their molester every time they go to shul, the store, the bakery, school, their friends house is a living nightmare. When the guy is in jail, it is the only breath of air they can take before setting foot outside their house. Your stating that it was the focus of studies is a joke. Would you like to read a few anti vax studies? I can even find a bunch that state same gender parents can raise children with no consequence. How about a study that says living with your spouse before marriage may make your marriage stronger. What shaichis studys when real life people say differently. Get in touch.
Little I know:
was that study targeting children who were abused?
the way trauma as a young child effects as a person is a lot different than how adults are effected by trauma.
a study done on adults would bring total different results then a study targeting childrenT2T:
You wrote: “So you sgree we should take them to court if we believe they were psrt of the abuse?
Well how do u propose a victim take them to court without suing them first?”I am declaring that yeshivos, rarely if ever, have responsibility for the crimes committed. If you can prove they do, with policies that are the structure of the yeshiva, you have a case. Meanwhile, you have individuals who are committing crimes that are outside of their job description, whether the abuse or the protection. Your second sentence is hardly coherent. There are criminal matters, and there are compensation lawsuits. If a crime is proven, throw the book at ’em. If liability is proven, award them. The question is whether old cases can be proven with anything beyond a verbal claim. The “metoo” movement states that anyone that claims anything should get millions. I say that true victims might deserve something, but that this “window” just invites false claims. I also question whether monetary awards accomplish anything but damaging the alleged perpetrators and the yeshivos.
Syag:
Why insult yourself? Have you any clue what scientific research is? Any study requires a research design that is crafted, modified and improved, and passes review by several experts. Conducting the study, providing everything needed to replicate it, analyzing the results, and drawing conclusions are all complex processes that bear no resemblance to the impulsive comments that appear in the CR. The questions you ask have been asked before, and the studies bear out that there is no meaningful clinical benefit from the negative consequences to the abusers. No one conducts studies with the conclusion predetermined, and you may be saddened that they do not support your belief. Do you really think the researchers did not study the victims?
You are correct that encountering the molester would be painful to the victim. Incarceration, as wonderful as it might be, is not the only answer to that. How about if the alleged abuser moved away and they would never meet again? I’m not looking to protect anyone, just to ficus on the question. No, I’m not insulting victims/survivors, and I have made my observations from having spent many, many hours with them. Difference is that I am making logical and intellectual observations, and you are speaking from passion. That’s why I won’t make the “breath of air” the punishment of the abuser. Both have merit, but are not connected. The scientists studying the matter also believed, in their hypothesis, that you were correct, but the results indicate otherwise.
places:
The studies I saw focused on children who were abused. I do not recall, without reviewing them, what the top age was. It may have included adolescents, but I do not remember. That relates to the subjects of the abuse. As far as the ones studied, they were adults at the time of collection of data, and there was plenty of time passed during which there were observations of those whose abusers received consequences versus those who did not.
What is important is that we are all entitled to our feelings and passions. When we are addressing how to act on them, we must always allow facts to be the guide. I hate molesters as much as anyone here, and I have nary a good word to defend them or their protectors. There is an obsession by many to punish, punish, sue, incarcerate, and punish some more. That focus comes from passion, not logic. If we focus on what truly helps, there is a very different picture. I do not support any statute of limitations. But I also cannot support the “metoo” delusion that allowed for women to fabricate lies to block Kavanaugh, that brought experienced politicians into the delusion. Victimization happens, and our community is not exempt. Now, what will help? We disagree on whether this legislation helps or hurts. I recognize the need for something. I believe this is not it.
I am more than familiar with studies. At work I have read and critiqued many studies, some so far fetched that you can’t believe they got someone to fund it. I have seen studies that use data from groups smaller than my immediate family. The fact that it was a published study means nothing. That’s like saying you believe it because you saw it on the internet.
You seem to be confused about passion and knowledge. See, someone can have knowledge about something they are passionate about, and that is why it is all the more upsetting when people post misinformation on the topic. And knowing your stand on abuse issues, I am actually surprised to hear you say any of these things because 1) It is not supported in real life and if you have indeed spent any time with survivors you would know that (based on your insight in other topics) 2) Quoting studies as if that automatically means they are fact is somewhat irresponsible. We can make assumptions from studies, but that does not create facts.
You are welcome to use literature to drive your decisions, but everything I have seen in real life has proven them wrong on this. So therefore, I will chose not to. As I do when I encounter any study that doesn’t shtim with what is really out there. Professionals do it all the time. regardless of their passions.“NCB, nobody is defending enabling child molestation. Total straw man.”
If a Yeshiva knows it has a child molester and does not do anything about it, they should be sued out of existence. If you disagree, you are definitively an enabler. That’s not a straw man; that’s just a matter of not warping the definition of enabling to fit your wacko agenda.
If a Yeshiva knows it has a child molester and does not do anything about it, they should be sued out of existence.
But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about suing a yeshiva for events which may have taken place 30 years ago, when now the alleged perpetrators and enablers are no longer working in the yeshiva.
Sue the guilty people, not the people who happen to be working in an institution in which the guilty people used to work.
I doubt the victims will get very far in suing the yeshivas. But the abusers need to be brought to justice, and I’m thankful that society is being forced to see that these things happen. Stories where the beit din tells an abuser to get counseling and then sends them to another yeshiva to continue abusing while silencing the family. I remember a story where a family called local police because the counsel wasn’t doing anything, and they were shunned, harassed, no longer accepted into schools. No parent should have to choose between community acceptance and their child’s neshama.
Find a way to really look into the backgrounds of your teachers and counselors. And men should be careful to have a witness every time they’re alone counseling a boy. The abuse needs to stop.
DY
I dont think you understand, Yeshivas are usually ‘Family Businesses” and whomever was in charge 30 years ago, its likely in charge today or at the worst their decendents are . So they same people are in charge, even if the Perp is no longer there.
And I am fairly certain you cannot leagally sue the Perp if the crime happend during work hours. The employer is responsible
The little I know,
“I am declaring that yeshivos, rarely if ever, have responsibility for the crimes committed. If you can prove they do, with policies that are the structure of the yeshiva, you have a case.”
You are forgetting about the possibility of an institution that fails to follow its stated policies.
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