Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Goyim mixed in with the Jewish People
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September 16, 2013 12:24 am at 12:24 am #610643harriMember
i learnt that when moshiach comes moshiach will point out to many people who had always assumed they are goyim just as their parents and grandparents and earlier assumingly were. moshiach will tell them you are jewish! join our nation in the redemption. these will be people whose ancestors 500 or 1000 (or whenever) years ago were forcibly converted to other religions or somehow else got mixed into the goyishe nations. (the ten lost tribes fit in this narrative?)
anyways, my curiosity pertains to the opposite parallel. goyim who got mixed into the jewish people. this could’ve happen in different ways. a child brought up by a jew but never converted (and all her descendants). someone who underwent a conversion that was for whatever reason invalid and not a good conversion. or even someone who pretended to be a jew, told his children they are jewish and that lie perpetuated for generations. there may be other ways this could’ve happened (reform/karaite type converts that later mixed into orthodox/rabbinate communities without further conversion). and when these type of situations occurred 500 or 1000 or longer years ago, you now have tens or hundreds of thousands of people, descending from the female lineage of these people, who think they are jewish but are not. these people may be all around us. (is this what people call the eruv rav? or maybe similar to the cusim.)
so when moshiach comes will he point them out and say you aren’t jewish? they cannot participate in the redemption, etc. presumably since they acted jewish all their lives they also fulfilled the seven noachide laws and thus qualified for righteous gentile status.
September 16, 2013 12:33 am at 12:33 am #975083yitayningwutParticipant??? ??? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????, ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????…
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-Mishna Eduyos 8:7
September 16, 2013 12:42 am at 12:42 am #975084harriMemberyitayningwut: thank you for sharing that mishna. i dont think it relates to my question because it seems to be referring to jews specifically, and in my question the subjects would be gentiles.
also, i seem to recall that mishna is referring to a situation like a mamzer who no one knows is a mamzer, so moshiach (or actually eliyahu hanavi) will not “out” as a mamzer and he will be allowed to continue living as a kosher jew.
thanks again for bringing that relevant mishna.
September 16, 2013 12:46 am at 12:46 am #975085harriMemberif you think about the mishnas situation, that would’ve been very scary. a mamzer 1000 years ago passed off as a kosher jew and when eliyahu hanavi comes he would suddenly declare 50,000 descendants of his as mamzerim. thankfully that doesn’t happen.
September 16, 2013 2:05 am at 2:05 am #975086Sam2ParticipantIt can’t happen. It doesn’t matter if a mother was a Jew faking as a Goy. The kids have a Chazakah that they are Jewish. Nothing short of Eidus can change that (and you would need 2 Eidim).
September 16, 2013 2:19 am at 2:19 am #975087harriMembersam: i think you meant to write a mother was a goy faking being a jew?
but really? if a goy wants her children to be jewish (or lets say she committed a crime and the police are hunting her down so she hides among the jews to escape justice), she can move to a town where she is unknown, pretend to be jewish, and her children are considered true jews?
and same with a reform convert from 75 or 150 years ago whose children or grandchildren truly thought they were real jews, and then a kiruv rabbi (not knowing the background) was “mekarev” them from reform without any conversion, her children are considered real jews?
September 16, 2013 2:19 am at 2:19 am #975088akupermaParticipantSo when meshiach comes, anyone who turns out to be a goy of Jewish descent who has been living as a Jew will convert. Remember that (as is often discovered in working with Baalei Tsuvah) it is a “piece of cake” to convert if a person who is Shomer Mitsvos does a little genealogical research and discovers they aren’t really Jewish.
September 16, 2013 2:22 am at 2:22 am #975089harriMemberakuperma: correct me if im wrong, but i seem to remember learning that we wont be accepting converts after moshiach arrives. (otherwise all the gentiles will suddenly feel like converting.)
September 16, 2013 2:44 am at 2:44 am #975090metrodriverMember@sam2:And what would these 2 Eidim attest to?! That this Chassidic Jew with the big, tall and wide shtreimel and the gold-laced Bekishe that is made of the same material as his wife’s wedding gown, is actually NOT Jewish. Because they knew his great grandmother on his father’s side back in Hungary. And she used to come in every Shabbos morning and remove the candlesticks from the table, and throw fresh wood in the furnace. Or Eliyahu would reveal that Fidel Castro and Che Guevarra were actually descendants of the forced converts in Spain.
September 16, 2013 4:27 am at 4:27 am #975091yehudayonaParticipantmetrodriver, surely you meant his great grandmother on his mother’s side.
September 16, 2013 6:10 am at 6:10 am #975092jewishfeminist02Memberakuperma, conversion is never a piece of cake, no matter what the circumstances.
September 16, 2013 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #975093metrodriverMember@yehudayonah: Absolutely. And I understand the difference. But it sounded better. More poetic. There is an additional piece that I had typed, about the way to recognize who is truly a descendant of Avraham Avinu, according to the Gemara. But I deleted that part.
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