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So stop acting like they are.
Glad to get that off my chest.
Not sure what you’re saying.
Against the Gemorah in Bava Basra 9a:
?”? ????? ???? ????”? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???”? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? <????? ??????> {????? ?????} ??????? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ????? ???’ (?????? ?) ??????? ????
Of course, one can argue that we don’t take this Aggaditah literally…… 🙂
who is ??????? ??????
who is ??????? ??????
If you have taxes deducted from your paycheck that is what it is.
Government programs are for everyone who is a legal resident, if they qualify.
Of course, one can argue that we don’t take this Aggaditah literally…… 🙂
Or that it doesn’t apply when ??? comes from the ????? ?????.
There’s a very popular ideology in the non-orthodox world that you’re a better Jew if you vote for the people who will take more money away from working people and give it away because it counts as “tzedakah” or “tikkun olam.” Yes, it’s very annoying. I think this is what Avram is talking about.
It is like taking tzedakah, though no one can be credited with giving tzedaka. In short, the worst possible kind of charity.
The are opinions that bnei Noach are also obligated in tzedaka. In any case, they can certainly accept it upon themselves (Biur Halachah, end of 304, in explanation of the Magen Avraham). However, the welfare state is not true tzedaka as it encourages family break-ups and is a disincentive to work. The best baalei tzedaka are entrpreneurs who create productive jobs (Schach Yoreh Deah 249:7).
of course they are tzedaka
DY – You may not have read the Gemorah quoted in my post:
??? ??? ???? <????? ??????> {????? ?????} ??????? ????? ????”? ???? ??? ?????
The term (????? ?????? {????? ????? is quite explicit. However, if you have a Rishon that explains like your conjecture, I would be glad to hear it (and how in the world they read the Gemorah).
apushatayid, Abba_S: The (????? ?????? {????? ?????. If you have any questions, you can see the Gemorah with Rishonim (such as the Rabbanu Gershom on the Daf).
Who is ??? referring to?
Squeak, not the worst, because there’s an element of maran b’seser involved – some preservation of dignity.
Also, I agree with popa. I think we all may be addressing different understandings of the OP.
Avram, mind explaining?
It is like taking tzedakah, though no one can be credited with giving tzedaka.
Exactly the opposite. It is Pashut that those who give have that money considered as being given to Tzedaka (as per the Gemorah), the question is if those who receive it are receiving Tzedaka.
Who is ??? referring to?
Better. Certainly the giver.
So we have to ask the question (which is relevant on multiple fronts). If someone gives money that is Halachicly considered to be Tzedaka, and someone else takes that money (via a third party middleman), is that considered to be “taking Tzedaka”?
For example, Tomchei Shabbos collects money to distribute food, or the local scholarship fund collects money for children to be able to be in Yeshiva, or the camp fund collects money so children should be able to attend camp, or the Hachnosas Kallah fund collects money so that Kallahs can buy needed items at a significant discount. Is one who accepts/uses these funds considered to be taking Tzedaka? Or are they beneficiaries without being Tzedaka?
Who is ??? referring to?
Better. Certainly the giver.
Now go back to my previous comment.
Who is ??? referring to?
Better. Certainly the giver.
Now go back to my previous comment.
Thanks, that makes more sense. Opens up a different question, but one that I believe is answered there in Bava Basra. If a Goy gives money that for a Jew would be Tzedaka, and a Jew accepts it, is that considered Tzedaka?
The Gemorah in Bava Basra 10b answers “yes”. Furthermore, the Gemorah there faults Jews for using money given as Tzedaka by non-Jews, and suggests that the money given should be exclusively used for non-Jewish causes.
Once again from Mechon Mamre
????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? (?????? ??) ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????????? ????? <????? ??????> {????} ???? ??? ????? <????? ??????> {????} ???????
We see from here that perhaps (and I’m not a Posek, so will leave it open) it is worse to accept government funds in America, thereby giving the Hamon Am (and the Government) the Zechus, vs. in Eretz Yisroel, where the Zechus goes to Jews. (Unless of course you hold it is way worse to give the Shreklecke Tamei Zionists any Zechusim……)
P.S. I’m Modeh that it is a bit shakier ground as taxes are not explicitly given as Tzedaka. I would argue that Rov people understand some of their money will go towards government programs to help the poor. Furthermore, even if not, the prior gemorah does not say that if the giver is not Jewish, they would not get a similar Zechus. I’m willing to back off that specific point if you have a strong Rayaih from a Rishon or early Achron on the topic.
In other words, if paying taxes is like giving tzedaka. Receiving government funds is like taking from the Tamchui.
In other words, if paying taxes is like giving tzedaka. Receiving government funds is like taking from the Tamchui.
The question needs to be asked, I’m not certain of the answer. If the answer is no, one does then have to explain if (and perhaps it isn’t) taking a Tomchei Shabbos package is Tzedaka using the same rules, especially if Tomchei Shabbos (or other “Jewish” type programs) is partially subsidized by the government.
I’m still trying to figure out what we’re discussing. Either way, I don’t think either gemara is necessarily relevant.
You said yourself why the second isn’t, and the first isn’t because there’s no indication that a non Jew’s forced tax payments are considered tzeddakah (which is a second reason that the second gemara isn’t relevant).
Squeak -“It is like taking tzedakah”
No, it’s worse than taking Tzedakah!
Why?
there’s no indication that a non Jew’s forced tax payments are considered tzeddakah
Other than that for a Jew they would be, and there is no strong reason to be Mechalek, as there is Tzedaka for non-Jews. Once again, if you have a source (not a Boich S’varah) that is Mechalek, I would be happy to be Chozer. As is, I’m Mesupak myself.
DY -“Why?”
Because some people (Yidden & Goyim) think – Es Koompt Zey!
Ask why it’s considered tzedakah even though it was not voluntary. Then see if the answer is universally applicable. Otherwise, ein l’cho bo ela chidusho.
So if they have hakaras hatov it’s okay?
Avram
So I saw a family with some kids leaving the grocery store, and they got into a shiny new Honda Odyssey (those things are $$$). And I’m sure that they received child tax credits, I mean, why wouldn’t they? They certainly qualified for them. So I glared at them and thought, “have you no shame??”
is this against the law or against the Halacha? If they did not lie to get these things , then its not against the law or Halacha. Does it pass the “smell test”
Any Torah source is referring to Jews unless indicated otherwise. What is the law for the Jews is not necessarily (and usually isn’t) the law regarding non-Jews.
Is this a troll thread?
Is this a troll thread?
Shh, don’t tell everyone.
Avram in MD – all good questions, and I’m not going to claim that I know the answers. There is a Gemorah, which learns the concept of money forcibly taken away as the RBSO counting it towards Tzedaka from a Pasuk (not a S’varah or a “why” type consideration). If we really believe this with all of its practical implications (and I’m not saying that we do), then yes, you would have lower (or no) taxes if you gave enough Tzedaka, weren’t an Am HaAretz, etc.
Assuming that having your money taken by force is what makes it count as tzedakah (and I don’t think that applies to U.S. taxes), why would non-Jewish tax dollars going towards a credit for a Jewish family with kids yield any more zchus to the taxpayer than, say, the tax dollars going towards a new warship?
That was my earlier question above. If giving money counts as Tzedaka does being on the receiving side mean you are accepting Tzedaka, or perhaps not. I could hear both ways (i.e. it is reasonable to say that the money is given and done with, and the choice of the middle party to give to specific individuals is their choice and not “giving” Tzedaka to be “accepting” Tzedaka).
So while giving towards government programs Mi’daas or having taxes taken by force of law would be counted as Tzedaka, receiving government programs very well might not be.
There is a Gemorah, which learns the concept of money forcibly taken away as the RBSO counting it towards Tzedaka from a Pasuk (not a S’varah or a “why” type consideration).
It’s a giluy milsa, not a g’zeiras hakasuv.
This week’s new Government Programs chumra: if you receive Section 8 assistance, you should not mow your lawn or shovel snow from your sidewalks ever, because Heaven forbid a passerby might think you can afford lawn care service and therefore you must have cheated to receive Section 8.
Isn’t section 8 rental assistance? Shouldn’t the landlord be mowing the lawn and shoveling snow?
We can put it to a vote as possible Chumrah of the week, if you would like.
It’s a giluy milsa, not a g’zeiras hakasuv.
Rayah? And a real source, not a thought up s’vorah.
Is one arguing that a Jews who is receiving “welfare” is accepting Tsadakkah from goyim (which assumes the government have the din of “goyim” since in most places the majority of the voters are non-Jews)? Does one distinguish between programs designed to be nice to poor people (food stamps, WIC, Section eight, Medicaid) from those with ulterior motives (subsidized college tuition, free roads, subsidized transit systems, free trash pickups)?
Is one arguing for/against the idea that the government (i.e. the voters, who in America control the government) should vote to tax themselves in order to help the poor?
akuperma makes a good point. Those opposed to people accepting legally entitled Section 8, food stamps, welfare, etc., should be just as opposed to accepting government PELL grants to pay for college, a subsidized subway system such as in NYC, the Earned Income Tax credit, etc.
Do those opposed to others accepting WIC themselves refuse to apply for PELL, don’t fill out for a EIC on their tax return, etc.?
Health – iz kumpt zei is accurate. That’s why its called entitlements. Now its not to say that people can’t get upset at those who milk the system and exploit loopholes in order to live a middle class lifestyle off of money perceived as intended for the poorest of society. That is your right. I personally agree with that way of thinking – before unzerer figured this all out braodscale, it was in vogue to bemoan welfare queens.
There’s a world of difference between taking HUD and EBT vs. child tax credits. The former are welfare programs, while the latter is part of a progressive tax system and/or social engineering incentives. Joseph’s examples are social engineering incentives too, no comparison to welfare.
Child tax credits are one thing. The same credit is offered to a couple making a quarter of a million a year as a couple making $40,000 a year. It is tax law as much as paying the income tax rate. But, on the other hand, the Earned Income Tax Credit is akin to welfare as someone who has a zero tax rate, and pays not a dime in taxes, is entitled to receive a check from the government via the EITC with his tax return. Same principal applies to government college aid. If someone is demanding that others not accept welfare they are legally entitled to accept, they themselves ought to forgo claiming the EITC or a PELL grant.
That being said, it isn’t contradictory for the same person to oppose government laws offering food stamps, welfare, WIC and Section 8 at the generous levels it is offered, and yet at the same time take advantage of those very laws he wishes to abolish by accepting those very entitlement programs at levels he opposes its existence. As long as its the law of the land and on the books he is fully legally and morally entitled to accept what’s offered, and what he and his family and friends are forced to pay taxes for. At the same time he advocates for its abolishment (from being so generous.)
EITC man dachar shemay? I was responding to Avram’s Odessey.
Since you bring it up, EITC is the same category as EBT – but PELL grants are different. It is for society’s benefit that we offer college aid to lower income people – we are afraid of losing out on the receipient’s potential contributions that would only be possible with academic study. The person himself could lead a wonderful life without pursuing higher education, it is not a welfare entitlement.
Ok! So why are recipients of EBT supposed to feel ashamed (according to some), but not recipients of the EITC?
Exactly my point!
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