Home › Forums › Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues › Government Attack on British Yeshivos
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August 2, 2017 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1330821JosephParticipant
What’s the most recent status on the threatened shutdown of Yeshivos by the British Deparment for Education, Ofsted?
August 2, 2017 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1331020DovidBTParticipantNot a direct answer, but you can view Ofsted (Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills) reports at: reports DOT ofsted DOT gov DOT uk
August 2, 2017 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1331039akupermaParticipantIf the US ends up with a Democratic president with a solid Democratic majority in the Congress, we can expect similar problems here. The best hope is that Trump gets to replace several liberals on the Supreme Court, and that is an “iffy” proposition.
August 2, 2017 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1331043DovidBTParticipantBy the way, isn’t “Ofsted” reminiscent of Orwellian Newspeak, in the theme of Miniluv, Minipax, Miniplenty and Minitrue?
August 2, 2017 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1331092lesschumrasParticipantThey are not attacking yeshivas because they are yeshivas. The yeshivas refuse to abide by secular education requirements. Some teach no English, others provide only one hour of secular education a day.
The yeshivas violate the law here as well. The difference is that politicians let them get away with it in exchange for bloc votingAugust 2, 2017 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1331112JosephParticipantNo, they are demanding that Yeshivos teach 8-10 year old children that toeiva is a legitimate “lifestyle”. Since the yeshivos are refusing to teach anything about THAT, that is why the government is threatening to shut down the yeshivos.
It isn’t even an issue of government funding the yeshivos. The Department is demanding they teach that even if they take no government funds (and many yeshivos, in fact, don’t.)
August 2, 2017 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1331179lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, if that were the only issue, it could be defended. But they refuse to teach virtually all secular subjects, including English language, which is not defendable
August 2, 2017 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1331202JosephParticipantThis is the issue why they are threatening to close the yeshivos. They claim British law requires all schools teach little children that toeiva is okay.
August 2, 2017 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #1331207JosephParticipantIn fact, the government report of their inspection of the yeshivos clearly stated they were impressed with everything else. That the children are receiving a well rounded education, but on this singular issue the yeshiva administration refuses to budge on and thus they are violating British educational law that requires that little children be taught about toeiva.
August 3, 2017 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1331227NeutiquamErroParticipantThe main issue affecting UK mosdos is the insistence of Ofsted, the body charged with inspecting and evaluating educational establishments, on promoting ‘British values’, which particular emphasis on issues such as toeivah and modesty. This was sparked by a case in Birmingham, known as the Trojan Horse plot, where Muslim organisations attempted, and managed, to ‘Islamify’ certain state schools. They used the schools, which were publicly run but had many Muslim students, to promote fundamentalist and Salafist values. Some of the incidents that were reported were truly shocking, although they are too numerous to go through here. The result of this was a moral panic, and heavy scrutiny on faith schools. Ofsted announced new procedures, such as unannounced surprise inspections, and a focus on ‘values’ and ‘rights’.
Unsurprisingly, the frum schools were caught in the crossfire. The majority of the fresh surprise inspections were targeted at religious Jewish schools, despite there only being about two dozen frum schools in the entire country. Whilst these schools often receive public funding, they were not actual state schools, like those affected by the Trojan Horse plot, and are technically private schools. And these schools had mostly received excellent results previous to this, with almost all rated ‘Good’ to ‘Outstanding’. These were schools that generally provided an exemplary secular education, attaining very good, sometimes country-best, exam results, and also taught as part of the curriculum ‘British values’ such as civic responsibility, democracy and tolerance. But this was not considered, and the inspectors focused very heavily on specific issues such as ‘equality’ and toeivah. As a result, previously highly rated schools were downgraded to ‘Poor’ or ‘Special Measures’, which can lead to forced closure. For example, Vizhnitz Girls School failed three consecutive inspections for failing to teach their students about toeivah, this being the only stated reason for the poor rating. There were instances of inspectors far overstepping their bounds by directly telling very young children about certain issues related to ‘equality’. In fact, the reports from Ofsted failing these schools bring the ‘Equalities Act of 2010’ as the primary reason. This story is ongoing, and leaves frum schools in a very difficult position. There has been a backlash, as Ofsted is supposed to be an apolitical organisation, but it seems determined to enforce its liberal values on the frum education sector.
What other posters have mentioned is a separate, although tangentially connected, issue regarding unregistered yeshvos, generally chassidishe chedarim, and their status. This has been fueled in particular by some who have left the kehilla going to the media. This is far less widespread then the above issue regarding ‘values’, and is notable mainly for the headlines it has generated. Some of them have reregistered as ‘sunday schools’, and Yeshiva Tiferes Yaakov in Gateshead, amongst others, had to register its lower shiurim as a ‘school’ to avoid censure. But the two are not the same story, and should not be confused with each other.
August 3, 2017 12:55 am at 12:55 am #1331226Avi KParticipantAkuperma, actually Trump has a good chance of adding another three judges to SCOTUS. Kennedy will probably retire soon. Breyer is 79 and Ginsburg are both over 84.
As for the UK, it will be interesting to see what will happen when they try to force it on Moslem schools. It serves them right for betraying their mandate. The Jews should get out while the getting is good.
August 3, 2017 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1331380zahavasdadParticipantIn the UK the government pays for Yeshivas, therefore they have the right to dictate policy. For those clamoring for Vouchers here in the US, Be careful what you wish for, They will give the money and then demand the right to dictate policies
August 3, 2017 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1331368JosephParticipantNeutiquamErro: Thank you for the update.
Wouldn’t this issue effectively affect every single Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov in the entire United Kingdom? Is every Yeshiva and Beis Yaakov of children under 18, in fact, being threatened by Ofsted with a shutdown unless they teach toeiva?
How do you see this playing out at the end of the day? Best case, worst case and most likely resolution of how each side (Ofsted, schools and parents) will react.
August 4, 2017 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1332759JosephParticipantNeutiquam?
August 5, 2017 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1332969NeutiquamErroParticipantJoseph: Sorry, was offline for a bit.
The way I see it, it’s impossible to know how this ends. The attitude towards religious faith schools has hardened in recent years, due to the ridiculous stories coming out of some Islamic schools. But public sentiment is still not in favour of forcing schools to teach young children about toivah and similar issues. There has been a bit of a backlash against Ofsted for being politicised. Inspections tend to come a few years apart, so these things unfold slowly. Under this government, which is broadly supportive of religious issues, it shouldn’t be too much of an issue, but these things can change. Ofsted’s power to close schools is limited, but it can make things very difficult.
August 5, 2017 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1332964Sam2ParticipantSo this hasn’t been a problem for Frum shcools. It’s been a problem with exactly one. I know people who claim to know the situation very well, but no one’s been able to explain it to me. Still, it seems strange that only one Chassidish school is under threat while the others are able to meet the requirements. I’m assuming every Talmud Torah in Gateshead isn’t mentioning homosexuality in any way, shape, or form. So whatever is going on, I’m guessing it’s more than just this one problem with the school.
August 6, 2017 12:34 am at 12:34 am #1332991JosephParticipantSam, Ofsted’s report on that school clearly said that the Yeshiva is doing excellent in all other regards and measurements that the British Department of Education reviews and rates schools by, except for the singular issue of their failing to teach little children about the acceptability of toeiva. The report is publicly available online.
August 6, 2017 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1332998Avi KParticipantZD, even without vouchers the state can remove accreditation. So far, however, there are exceptions for religious institutions. Of course, no one knows what will happen in the future but it is very doubtful that with Trump remaking the judiciary attempts will pass muster.
August 6, 2017 8:15 am at 8:15 am #1333048NeutiquamErroParticipantFor the sake of clarity, in the UK there’s several different types of schools. Firstly, fully private schools, some of which, confusingly, are known as public schools. These receive no government funding. Many of the ‘frummer’ schools are fully private, as this allows them complete control over their curriculum, within very broad perimeters. An example of this would be Etz Chaim school in Manchester. Secondly, state-aided schools. These are private schools in most respects, except in order to receive state aid they have to commit to certain guidelines, for example a commitment to a certain standard of secular education. The funding they receive covers a portion of the schools costs, although they are fee paying. Pardes House Primary School is an example of that. Thirdly, you have state schools, what in the US would be known as public schools. These are run by the state, with the basic curriculum set by the education ministry. Also, a fourth category would be an academy, which is independent of government control but fully funded by the state. A type of academy is a free school, which is set up and run by the parents of a community. JFS, or the Jewish Free School, in London, is an example of this.
Most frum Jewish schools are fully private or state-aided to avoid close government control of their curriculum. But Ofsted have broad powers, and all schools are inspected and receive a rating. A school has to be judged to be providing a satisfactory level of education, and if it consistently fails to do that, it risks forced closure. A private school has more leeway in that it can set its own parameters, and has to fulfill those. But as regards the issue of having to teach subjects regarding modesty, toeivah and issues ragrading gender, there is no particular reason why a fully private school should have an easier time than a state-aided one. It has to fulfill what Ofsted class as a full education, and that includes so-called ‘British values’.
It’s worth noting that inspections can be over 5 years apart. Therefore, these stories do not emerge at once, but arise if and when the school fails an inspection. Certain inspections have led to problems of this nature, others have not. The standards are not applied consistently. Since there are so few frum Jewish schools, and inspections are relatively rare, it’s difficult to see at what stage of this story we are holding. The worst could be over, it may have just began. But what has been consistent throughout is that it is not the teaching standards that are causing the issue, it is the specific issue of ‘values’. This has been repeatedly made clear. The case that made the news most widely was the Vihznitz Girls School, that failed three consecutive inspections, a newsworthy story regardless of the cause. And in that case, it was made abundantly clear that it was down to the failure to teach the children about toeivah and suchlike. Insinuating that the issue at hand is poor teaching standards is prejudiced and plain false. And it is not restricted to that one school, virtually every school has had to deal with this specific issue in some respect recently, and have had to get around it in different ways. There have been stories in various schools of inspectors taking it upon themselves to bring the issues up before the children, and similar such events. As I have said, there was an entirely separate issue of unregistered yeshivos that is an entirely different story, that has since passed. There is no need to conflate the two.
August 6, 2017 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1333137ChortkovParticipantI’m assuming every Talmud Torah in Gateshead isn’t mentioning homosexuality in any way, shape, or form.
Of course they don’t. However, a lot of the failing is due to the reactions of the children selected during the inspection, and it is likely that in most frum schools – at least in the high schools – there are children who are exposed to the concept of same sex marriage on some level. Depending on the child’s initiative, the answers can vary in standards and can often reach the pass level even without being taught. Viznitz, however, would be blatantly clear that the children do not know of or support homosexual marriage.
August 6, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1333251JosephParticipantYekke, the inspectors are testing whether the children support or oppose toeiva marriage? The children, theoretically, may express an opinion different than what taught in school. Thus, regardless of their response to the government inspectors, it wouldn’t necessarily reflect what the school taught or didn’t teach. And as such makes no sense to be used to determine whether the school passed or failed the British Values test.
August 6, 2017 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1333265ChortkovParticipantJoseph – the facts are that they are interviewing the pupils, not the staff. They sit down with the kids and ask all manners of awkward questions. If a kid is savvy enough, he knows to answer that they are taught tolerance. (I’m not sure that this is the right thing to do, I wander what a Rav would pasken to a child who wants to know how to answer – to make a חילול ה and say that they are taught acceptance, or to say the truth and cause issues!) Some schools may even teach the kids how to answer awkward questions.
August 6, 2017 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1333263AvrahamGuestThank you Joseph for all your comments
Thank you Neutiquam for the comments.
The Jewish people are proud to have both of you on board.
Only the best for both of you -
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