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It’s been about three months that I’ve been on the cr, and now it’s time for me to go. My emunah is just not strong enough to hear everyone else’s doubts and still remain absolutely sure that there is a God in the world and He loves me. One poster in particular raised some doubts that took three solid hours with a rabbi to resolve. This, coupled with some other stuff have made me realize that the internet and I don’t go well together. And so it is with regret and sadness that I say my final goodbye to the CR. You guys have helped me through so many trials in my life and I will be eternally grateful for all that you’ve done. I will miss the informative and funny posts I’ve seen so frequently. In particular I’d like to wish a particularly heartfelt goodbye to the following posters:
MODS- Thank you for all your hard work! I will miss your insightful comments.
Eclipse- Your kind heart and creative spirit have inspired me in so many ways.I wish you and the luckiest guy in the world a long beautiful marriage with all the good in the world. You are in my thoughts and prayers. You are an amazing person. God bless you!
Shopping613- You are sooooo nice and sweet. I love your personality. I will really miss you!
Kapusta- Thank you for that kind post you wrote on the poetry thread.It helped me through some of the hardest things I’ve ever been through. I’m gonna miss you!
Bookworm- You area very creative and special person!I’ll miss your entertaining comments!
Syag Lchochma- You are a very special person.Your ability to always say the nicest things amazes me and your love for all of Hashems children shines through in you every post. I’ll miss your posts!
Sharp- No words. I’m really going to miss you!
To all other posters- I’ll miss you all! Keep growing, and remember that Hashem loves all his children and no matter what mistakes you make, He is ALWAYS there for you. Dont ever forget that!
love always,
The_Art_Of_Moi
I think the OPs first paragraph, especially her second and third sentences, are well worth reading an rereading and duly noting, considering and acting upon. She surely is not the only one tested with such an endeavor here. Mitigation of this danger by duly changing the moderation of this place should be implemented forthwith.
It also must serve as a warning as to the extreme dangers of the internet overall. Many previously frum people have r’l fallen to the depths never to recover from this exact pitfall.
Thank you the-art-of-moi for pointing out this hazard and for reducing the risk of it for yourself by walking away from it so as not to get burnt by it. Playing with fire is not safe. Have a wonderful Shabbos and may you continue to grow and prosper in Torah, Yiras Shamayim and Emunah Peshuta.
Wow. The part about emunah kills me, as the CR is supposed to be a warm, engaging and yeshivish environment. Much hatzlachah in your all your future learning and doing.
Goodbye, a-o-m. Stay strong.
Getzel, you are 100% right. This should not be the forum for these discussions and some of the comments sprinkled in otherwise seemingly innocent threads.
AOM – I am unbelievably impressed that you are able to see this issue and do something about it. I can only daven that my own children should have such insight to their nisyonos and strength. May Hashem reward this move with tremendous hatzlacha and bracha and endless emuna shleima!!!!!! Don’t look back, you won’t be sorry!
Nooooo! Nooooo! Don’t leave us, the-art-of-moi! Who else will I entertain with my comments? :O
Nonetheless, I completely respect your reason – you’re probably doing the right thing for yourself. May you have only simchas in your life from now on, and may your emunah become stronger than ever!
Thank YOU for the impact that you have made on the CR. Every person makes a difference, yourself included.
Never forget, Hashem is always there, even if it doesn’t always seem apparent to you. Have a wonderful Shabbos!
<3 Bookworm
This is very scary.
TAOM:
I certainly will miss you, and your posts.
BTW, you don’t necessarily have to bite everything those people write. You have to choose carefully. ?? ?? ????? is an important admonition. One must know what to answer, and more importantly, HOW to answer. You’ll find these in real life too, just it’s easier to pick out who you’d choose to interact with in real life. Some times, as you write, it’s true, just dealing with these sort will only get you mired deeper in their mud.
Hatzlacha Rabbah! ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???!
(come occasionally check up on me..)
wow! i really admire you for what you are doing… when someone makes a sacrifice for yiddishkeit, its a huge eis ratzon, please utilize it!
If there’s a rabbi who can resolve emunah doubts in three hours, I’d like to meet him.
I’m guessing Yungerman from Lakewood is the culprit.
Bookworm: Nice siggy, and HEY, what am I chopped liver???
AOM: We will miss you SOOOOO much!! Specially me, but its a great step and Im SOO happy you are taking it! Im sure if you feel its best, it is!!!! I realy admire you for leaving…the CR has doughted me emuna before, but Im what do you call it….stuborn…so even though the Satan is dancing in front of my face, Im still “IM RIGHT! AND ALL ALWAYS BE RIGHT IN MY BELEIFS SO THERE!”
Good Luck for the future!
I wish you all the most fabulicous brachos in the world!!!!!
VM – seriously. If a rabbi can solve things like the theodicy, the problem of evil, the challenge of science and the balance of faith, reason and evidence in three hours I want to meet him. He’s Rabbi Hillel’s smarter brother 🙂
VM: Maskimah. Either that or TAOM’s emunah was stronger than she thought- an idea I can definitely understand (TAOM, keep reading).
TAOM: Good luck in your new ventures! I’m sorry to see you leave- besides for your seeming like a very sweet person, one I’d be thrilled to know in real life, every mature teenager (like me 🙂 ) on this site is a benefit and a gift (in my utterly unbiased opinion)- and the maturity is evident just from this post. What you write is absolutely a fantastic point- it was one of the several reasons I took a hiatus a while back but I ended up returning anyway. I’m not always sure it was a good idea to come back. Maybe the reason I’m still here is because I wasn’t so sheltered in the first place, I don’t know. But I absolutely respect you for making a decision and sticking to it (though if indeed you are sticking to it, you’ll probably never see my response here…).
We’ll miss you!
you know what, i think i will do the same, if she can, so can i!
Ikno
You know what maybe I should also take some time off from here!
Unfortunately for me, the reason I’m here is usually to keep me off of other sites during meetings (I love unsolved murder stories and can read dateline transcripts for hours if left without conscience). So being here is the better of the choices at this time. I have seriously limited the threads I will open, though, for the very reason AOM has mentioned and she has given me much chizuk!
As Daas Yochid says, this site wassn’t meant for these discussions, and it surely doesn’t portray itself as being so. There are many sites that enjoy playing with Ikrei Emuna. There should be at least one place free of that so that people who don’t want it have a place to discuss level 2.
Art-Of-Moi, empowered with this small but significant step, you should go Meichayil El Chayil. Hashem should answer your Tefillos very quickly, and that will be your first hand encounter that no logic can dispute.
TAOM
If you’re reading this.. you shouldn’t.
WIY and ikno:
Go ahead!!! If she can do it EVERYONE CAN!!!!! If you feel that way, I advise you to go in her footsteps…
Worse is that CR censored out a long response I wrote to the Kefira.
Zvei dinim, it’s likely that no moderator had time to read it before the thread was closed. As strongly as I feel that moderation failed in allowing kefirah to be posted, I don’t suspect that they take the side of the kofrim.
Instead of blaming the CR,why not blame your teachers etc. Your emunah should be strong enough to overcome any anonymous poster on the internet
the art of moi- you are one of the posters I’ve often wished I could meet in person (assuming you’re female)….
Thank you for bringing this VERY DISTURBING issue to the attention of all…
Who knows what ripple effect your wise words may have.
You will be missed indeed.
Zvei Dinim: Your post had many external links. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rules-of-the-ywn-coffee-room-please-read
Look how many posts are going up in a Good-bye thread!!
Zahavasdad, teachers are only a small factor in emunah.
Zahavasdad: That too is true…but sometimes the remark from strangers gets in to your subconscious and starts making trouble more than a remark from someone you know….
She is not blaming the CR she is just saying that it was bad for her, maybe her emuna wasnt strong for all I know, but it wasnt a huge problem till she found the CR, and if she did have weak emunah thats great that now she knows and will strethen it…all cuz of the CR.
Still we are not all Rabbi’s and I also agree the emunah talks shoundnt be had with anonymous posters….esspecially since they could be anyone…like a J4J trying to put doubts in our minds…..
That being said, I always thought there always has to be a line (whether on-line or off-line) when dealing with this sort.
For instance, we have always known to keep away from missionaries, engaging them in conversation will not alter their pre-programmed mindset, it will only puncture holes in our own armor of Emunah.
Those that come in earnest, to seek, explore, find out, those we are bidden ??? ???? ???. To them there is a mitzvah of Tochacha. For them we must do whatever it takes to bring them back. Patiently, courteously, gently. Just like the four sons of the Hagadah. One who comes to scorn we chase him out. Others we deal with, each to their own method.
So when dealing with these issues here in the open, (even for those that come earnestly to seek) I think it would be prudent for some to take note and look elsewhere (all-important humor ones). For some, looking will only cause more doubt, disbelief.
The problem is if someone really does have emunah issues many times an anonymous forum is the only place to turn. Someone might have been ridiculed in the past for thinking that way.
But if your emunah is strong nothing anyone can say will change it.
Teachers was just a shortcut for anyone in OP’s life who influenced them
I just discovered this thread TAOM stay strong we love you.
It looks like I have missed something here. I have not been available to check in with the CR too often the last couple of weeks. WHAT ON EARTH happened here? What was said to chase someone nice away from the CR? How could it have an impact on someone’s emunah, and what thread did it concern? I am frankly baffled to come back to the CR and read the OP’s very disheartening post. TAOM, I hope you will reconsider, because just as (by your reckoning) things may have been posted that you feel have potential to weaken your emunah, I have found words of wisdom here that strengthen mine. It is all about how we accept and understand that which we read.
I hope you stay, but if not, hatzlacha rabbah to you.
ZD, this forum is not the place for it. If anonymity’s required, let them send an anonymous email to a kiruv pro. These posters didn’t come with honest questions; they came with false conclusions.
I really hope the mods clamp down on what they allow to be discussed here. If you want to have ikrei Emunah discussed here you must have a Rav moderating the discussion. Who knows how many people have already been turned off from yiddishkiet due to things they read here?!
DaasYochid,
“These posters didn’t come with honest questions; they came with false conclusions.”
Well, that’s an oversimplification, isn’t it?
I am not a frequent poster at all, but these topics usually capture my attention. A few months ago, with the “Frum” thread and the “science” thread, some posters wrote some really detailed, well articulated thoughts and opinions, using coherent, logical arguments, practically begging to be proven wrong in their conclusions on religion / emunah. This is a farewell tour, not the place to rehash the arguments. But to say they came with came with “false conclusions” and that the question weren’t “honest” is incorrect.
Just a cynical side point. We can’t go ask kiruv people, or at least I can’t. I don’t make enough money to garner their undivided attention for any meaningful amount of time. Not that it matters, I’ve read most of the responses to most of the issues and questions.
Oomis, just in general there have been alot of: why am I still frum types of posts and threads…you need to have really strong emuna to see those…..
For_real, I disagree with everything you wrote, but it would be hypocritical to debate here.
I truly hope and daven that you and the others have a yeshua.
Shopping – I don’t know about that. I am what might be described as modern orthodox machmir (I hate labels), but I have never been turned off by these questioning threads, nor has my husband, to whom I sometimes show the controversial ones, to see his take on them. If one has emunah, seeing these opinions expressed should not shake it – UNLESS – that person has never really believed in his/her heart that it is the EMES.
In the last six months, my family has been through a health tribulation that I do not wish on ANYONE, much less on the beautiful, wonderful people who are experiencing it firsthand. To add to it, I personally have my very own cyber bully, a former friend who unfortunately is mentally ill and has targeted me with her obsessive delusions. I am mentioning these very challenging and unpleasant things, specifically to make the point that real emunah is not only when things are going well, or when we have no questions.
Emunah that is part of our neshamos remains with us to HELP us through the challenges and difficulties that inevitably come into our lives. It also helps us to remain faithful to Hashem (hence the word emunah, which is from the same root as ne’eman – to be faithful), even in the face of questions that do not appear to have logical answers. Faith is not necessarily based in logic (though sometimes it is). Faith is exactly that, faith. We either have it, ro we do not. And when we are worried that we might not be strong in it, we DO have to take steps to strengthen ourselves. I guess that TAOM feels this is the best step, but I feel bad about that.
TAOM – Hashem Knows what we deserve and what we do not. Believe me, He listens to you ALL the time, and you DO deserve that. How about forgiving yourself? Hashem forgives everyone who is sincere in doing teshuva when needed. Is He not the Father of us all? Parental love is the strongest tie that binds. Never underestimate what YOU mean to Hashem.
Oomis:
When one has hashkafos properly implanted (such as you – as I read from your posts), strong winds of doubt won’t matter. Not so an impressionate young teenager (I suppose). Emuna takes a lot of cultivation, a lot of work is required to grow it, and with it. So any doubt, questioning etc. is a real cause for concern.
Oomis, you should filter out that bully’s emails.
TAOM – Try, instead, to be VERY selective about what threads you open. Open the fun ones and the funny ones. Don’t open subjects that you don’t feel strong enough to deal with. It sounds harder than it is. At first it was a small struggle, but right now I can’t shoulder anymore pain so I stay away from threads that hurt too much.
We will try to be here for you. I assume the other thread was removed for your protection so I will just say that I daven you find support from someone somewhere, and FAST!
Emuna is a Nesayon all the time, even if you are a Navi. Even Avraham Avinu had a Nesayon. Although Hashem spoke to him directly, it was still a Nesayon.
Kalev went to Davenat the Kvarim of the Avos and Imahos. He clearly knew what was right and what was wrong. Nevertheless, attitudes rub off. During a person’s lower moments he forgets his better moments. It is easier to bulldoze than to build. Even though a Navi’s Nevua is more clear to him than actual eye sight, he can still reflect at a lower moment down the line that perhaps he was imagining it.
The fact is that there is no Krias Yam Suf today. Coming to a mature conclusion, being Modeh El Ha’emes, and sticking to it is not easy and is not guaranteed. While it is important to address questions that arise there is no need to explore more questions unless you are doing so with the goal of addressing them, when you know that you are equipped to do so.
Da Ma Shetashuv does not mean to engage the Apikorus in conversation. In fact, Halomed Davar Echad Me’hamegush is Chayav Misa.
You’re back! *hugs*
TAOM – I can’t imagine that you asked it removed for that reason! I assumed the mods removed it to protect your identity. You don’t need to apologize for hurting and for being in a situation that most people here couldn’t even fathom. If they don’t want to read it – click – it’s gone. Not your worry.
There is a poster here who was very well liked whose went through some of that with a parent but for very different reasons. I wish he could be here still to give you some very first hand advice.
I just would like to know if now that these secrets aren’t so secret, if someone will make sure you find someone to talk to. PLEASE don’t go it alone!
the-art-of-moi
I don’t get it, if this place is dangerous to your Emunah you have no business coming back even if it helps you with your boredom or other issues. Do you think it is fair to the Rabbi who spent 3 hours trying to bring you back from your doubts? Maybe you should discuss your decision with him.
to all those who say that properly implanted emunah is unbreakable R’ Meir’s rebbi acher im sure had emunah and went off the derech im not sure if it is a chazal or posuk (i think its a mishna in avos but not sure and too lazy to look it up ) but we are told “don’t trust yourself until the day of your death”..
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