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Rebdoniel, you didn’t answer my question about the Kusim. Do you have an answer?
I believe in shleimus ha’am – and that means keeping erev rav and goyim mechutz lamachaneh. Insincere converts convert for their own gain, and they do not contribute a thing to am Yisroel. We have enough problems as it is – we don’t need new ones who are descended from Cossacks and Eastern European peasants who tormented our ancestors.
I lived among these con artists. I have provable stories of their post-geirus behavior that involve issurei skila and worse. (They are not fit to discuss here.)
We don’t need this kind of trash in our midst, or in our gene pool.
Bear, are you referring to Shyne? According to what I’ve read, he’s Jewish from birth, and it must have been a giyur l’chumra.
thebearisback I don’t know who you are referring to but there is a famous rapper converted in Israel who was a bit more than just being a rapper…
TheBear,
You wrote “A gerus for marriage is invalid, period.” That is simply mistaken. While l’chatchila we don’t a geirus for marriage, everyone agrees that l’acher hamaaseh it is a good geirus (if there was proper kabolas mitzvos).
As Reb Doniel has explained, if someone does milah and t’vilah and is mekabel the ol of the mitzvos, it is a good geirus. This is true even if they know that it will be very hard for them to keep all the mitzvos and they will inevitably fail now and again.
Because dvarim sh’blev aynom dvarim we don’t speculate about what subjectively people had in their hearts. Rather we examine the kabolo of mitzvos objectively. The kabolo will only be invalid (and the geirus invalid) if there is a maaseh at the time that objectively shows in was insincere (e.g. someone is m’gayur at gunpoint, chas v’shalom). The machlokes in the Gemara about the kusim is whether their geirus was objectively insincere.
Pure garbage. Since when do we accept someone who converts for marriage with NO intention of keeping ANYTHING? See what I posted – that is who I am talking about, not the mere handful of converts who became truly interested in Judaism through marriage or impending marriage to a Jew.
That is your typical giyores from the FSU erev rav in EY, the US and back in the ex-USSR – the kochavit hagiyur commercial is 100% accurate.
The resurgence of Judaism in the former Soviet Union has also attracted some fine male erev rav, who undergo worthless giyur by conning well-meaning rabbonim – the stories I know about some of these creeps would make a Weberman supporter (R”L) cringe.
In any case, what the medine does for citizenship is its business. Said citizenship does not confer Judaism, and that citizenship is a financial and social burden (and a threat to one’s safety) in any event.
And no, not Shyne. I hardly know who he is but the name sounds vaguely familiar.
Hint: Y-mach Shmo. (which will be the name of my YouTube act for Peerim this year, but in this case I am referring to a real troublemaker and M”Z-nik who somehow convinced an ehrlicher rov that he was sincere.)
Bear,
You are ignoring my argument and the halacha. Yes, if it was clear AT THAT TIME that person didn’t mean it when they verbally accepted ol malchus shomayim, then it is not a good geirus. However, if it was so clear we can assume an Orthodox Rabbi would not have done the geirus.
?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??, ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???”? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????
??”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ???
And we certainly don’t say that if a person is over aveiros after their geirus, then the geirus is batel l’maphraya. You are just ignoring the principle of dvarim sh’belev aynam dvarim. If a person was “conning” a well-meaning rav, then the con is on them because after 120 they will have to face Judgment as a Jew who is michuyiv in 613 Mitzvos.
As for the person you refer to at the end, he was properly migayer and was frum for years. The fact that he has gone off now (although he claims he is still a maiman) does not retroactively annul his geirus, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t sincere at the time, and even if he wasn’t sincere he is still a Jew because dvarim sh’blev aynom dvarim!
” Yes, if it was clear AT THAT TIME that person didn’t mean it when they verbally accepted ol malchus shomayim,then it is not a good geirus. However, if it was so clear we can assume an Orthodox Rabbi would not have done the geirus.”
No we cannot assume that someone who calls himself an Orthodox Rabbi would not have done an insincere geirus. R. Druckman in Israel, for example, did many hocus pocus geirus on insincere Gentiles who hardly even put up a pretense that they will be religious.
” If a person was “conning” a well-meaning rav, then the con is on them because after 120 they will have to face Judgment as a Jew who is michuyiv in 613 Mitzvos.”
That is simply absolutely incorrect. If he wasn’t mekabel the mitzvos the conversion was never valid. For example, if the Church sets up a spy to infiltrate the Jews and recruits a sincere Christian to pretend he wants to convert to Judaism, and the infiltrator is successful in having an Orthodox Rabbi convert him, the Christian remains a gentile and never became a Jew. Despite conning the Rabbi.
Benignuman,
When an entire class of people (based on origin and motivation, in this case) do not keep mitzvos, it is a fair assumption that the geirus was a sham to begin with. Objectively insincere, to use your terminology. R’ Moshe was not discussing this scenario, he was making a general rule (probably to apply to a specific case), but not saying an absolute.
You are ignoring my argument and the halacha. Yes, if it was clear AT THAT TIME that person didn’t mean it when they verbally accepted ol malchus shomayim, then it is not a good geirus. However, if it was so clear we can assume an Orthodox Rabbi would not have done the geirus.
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It is as clear as a bell that these people are phony. However, rabbis are human. Some are “shudders” corrupt, and will sell geirus, but in most cases the improper gerus comes about because people who grew up in a system where you conned everyone and everyone conned you end up conning a well-meaning rav who grew up in the US or EY or London or Antwerp, in a normal home and normal environment.
That rapper was not sincere from day 1. He was masking a tayva for MZ.
A true ger tzedek does not convert because being Jewish is “cool,” or because of marriage to a Jew. I remember the gerim of old, back in the days before it was “cool” and easy to obtain conversion. They are nothing like the people I know today – the BEST of whom just buys treyf in full view of community members in a store that sells plenty of kosher and raises her children in a certain “movement” that begins with a con – (perhaps because the real rabbonim where she now lives know her kids are not Jewish and don’t want to take them in).
TLKY & Daas Yochid,
Obviously there are people who call themselves “Orthodox” but are not really (I don’t mean to cast aspersions on Rabbi Druckman, I don’t know who he is). I should have qualified my statement with “a known, genuine Orthodox Rabbi.” If, however, the Rav is genuine, then we don’t inquire after the geirus but assume it is valid.
Rav Moshe writes that even in the cases such as you describe (what I called objectively insincere) it is at least a defensible position to be maikel b’dieved on the grounds that when they say the words of kabolas mitzvos any insincerity is dvarim sh’bilev. Even though Rav Moshe himself would not do such a geirus.
???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???????. ?? ??”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????, ?? ?????? ????. ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??”? ???? ???
Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah Chelek Aleph, No. 160
I have to think about your conning Christian scenario, because in that case he told someone (the Church) beforehand that he wasn’t sincere. I am not sure what the halacha would be in such a case.
R’ Druckman is the rosh yeshiva of Mosdot Bnei Akiva. He is an unparalleled talmid hakham.
Benignuman,
R’ Moshe is not even talking about a case where it is obvious even before the tevilah that the geirus is insincere; in which case he would probably not consider it a defensible position. The passul geirus that we’re talking about are obvious shame from the outset.
Bear,
From the one article I read, it sounds like he tried therapy. Tayva is not a contradiction to kabbolas mitzvos. He may have intended to control himself and or cure himself.
DaasYochid,
Assuming that, as Reb Doniel reports, Rabbi Druckman is a talmid chacham and moreh horaah, you would have to trust him that it was not objectively insincere at the time he was megayer them.
Bear,
As Daas Yochid said, kabbolas mitzvos doesn’t mean that you are saying you will never do an aveira l’tayovon. It means you are m’kabel the ol mitzvos and will try to keep them. Having, rachmana l’tzlan, a tayva for MZ is not a bar to becoming a Ger. Nor is believing Judaism “cool.”
Also, I have meant many fine, frum geirie tzedek from modern times.
The person involved is an acquaintance of mine.
he has seen these posts and read them. He does not think the mods will let him open an account so he asked me if I would post his response.
If the mods will allow I will post as soon as I get it.
Its only fair if someone is attacked to let them defend themselves
He is also rosh yeshiva of Ohr Etzion, affiliated with Bnei Akiva, and was awarded Prat Yisrael.
R’ Marc Angel is a talmid chacham, yet people challenge his conversions.
R’ Manny Vinas is also a big talmid chacham, having learned under R’ Zweig in Miami and at R’ Ziegler’s kollel, yet his conversions are challenged.
R’ Moshe Soloveichik in Chicago is also given flak over his conversions, as are many other Orthodox rabbis.
Marc Angel is a talmid chacham, yet people challenge his conversions.
Seriously? Is that really where you want to be placing your flag? On him?
Benignuman,
This is not a judgement on a particular case, it’s on an entire class of geirus. R’ Moshe certainly did not mean to automatically approve any geirus performed by an orthodox rabbi, even when there are known factors to disqualify them. He likely meant mistama.
I’m sure the beis din involved in being megayer the Kusim was not reform. 😉
Daas Yochid,
I clearly am missing some information about this class of people that is driving your argument.
The Kusim are a very interesting case (as far as I know unique). The King of Ashur appointed a Kohen (who had been living among the aseres hashvatim) to be megayer them. The Kohen didn’t have a choice in the matter (imagine an Orthodox Rabbi with a gun to his head). Still whether or not their Geirus was valid was a machlokes tannaim.
Bear, did you read the letter that this Ger wrote in response to your accusations?
He says that he knew being gay was wrong. He suppressed the desire as much as he was able. Did he slip sometimes? Yes, and he writes how he was wracked with guilt and cried about it after.
He converted because he was told when you convert, you become a new person and your old self is gone. He hoped it would rid him of these desires he had. It didn’t.
He married a woman, and went to therapy for years. Nothing helped, and he resented his wife. He says he is now OTD because of the issues he has with the chareidi world and how they handled (or didn’t handle) his situation.
He recognizes that acting on his desires is wrong, and tries to avoid it as much as he can. Being gay and frum is a terrible situation to be in, and I have a lot of pity for people in that situation. Imagine knowing that you have to go through life alone, unable to act on your desires – it’s a tremendous burden!
Don’t insult somebody you know nothing about. Be dan l’kaf zchus.
DaMoshe: Where is that letter/response posted?
The person involved has no neemonus. The rav involved was duped by a streetwise conman with some very serious issues. Gerus is not for amateurs, and that is why we don’t want the Amsalems and the Druckmans of this world to handle it.
If this one was told that he would become a new person without his old physical tayvos, that is as if a 300 pound ger tzedek goes down to 175 pounds the day he completes his gerus.
Dan lekaf zechus for this one is like dan lekaf zechus for molestors. I am tired of the left throwing out phrases like dan lekaf zechus, dina demalchusa dina and bein odom lechaveiro the way the non-Torah movements throw around “tikkun olam” – ie with no idea of what the phrases mean or when they apply.
Judaism is not the old American folk religion of matzo balls, UJA and state of Israel bonds. It is also not a Carlebach lovefest. It is a way of life based on a set of rules. You don’t follow the rules – you’re mechutz lamachane. You try to bend the rules – you’ll be pretty bent out of shape for 11 months after you leave this world.
Confucious – Google the person’s stage name + this name of this site.
benig: That’s absurd. Of course the Christian’s “conversion” was invalid. And it certainly isn’t solely dependent on his having told the Church in advance. Suppose a priest went through a “geirus” in such a scenario without telling anyone in advance, on his own initiative. Do you seriously entertain the idea that Father McGotti became a Yid??
I tried to post a link to it but the mods didn’t let it through. The Ger being discussed posted a response on his website called hiphopactivist.
Benignuman,
I tried posting a link to an article about it, to no avail. Try Googling “A New Conversion Scandal”. To summarize, Ariel Sharon set quotas for Russian immigrants to convert, in order to maintain the state’s “Jewish”Jewish identity. The Russians’ motivation for going along with it was for citizenship and army purposes. Their “kabalas ol mitzvos” was a complete formality and a sham. Their insincerity was evident from the outset, and they were completely nonobservant from the moment their “conversions” were done.
He wrote it on his blog
He has a website where he posted it. He said that some friends showed him the posts about him here the other day, and he wrote it as a response. He submitted it to YWN, but also wrote he didn’t think they’d post it because he gets into some details they likely wouldn’t want to publish.
Nothing was ever submitted to YWN
Bear: He’s not trying to bend the rules, he’s trying his hardest to stay within them. Everyone slips up sometimes. As long as we realize that when we do it’s wrong, and we try to do better, we’re on the right path. He claims that’s what is going on with him.
How can you judge him when he has such a terrible situation to live with? He is trying his best. He says he came out about his situation to show others in it that you can live as a frum gay person. Personally, I think a frum person who is gay and is able to resist his temptations 99% of the time is amazing. I wish I was able to resist 99% of my temptations to do wrong.
Unfortunately, with your lashon hara here (which obviously I am not mekabel), you are a far cry from resisting 99% of your temptations.
Mods: Sorry, I checked it again – he said it’s an open letter to Yeshiva World.
Correct, an open letter on his blog
He has a website where he posted it. He said that some friends showed him the posts about him here the other day, and he wrote it as a response. He submitted it to YWN, but also wrote he didn’t think they’d post it because he gets into some details they likely wouldn’t want to publish.
Nothing was ever submitted to YWN
He also told me they would never allow him to post a response on YWN
For the record, a request was never made
Bear,
Maybe you should learn a little mussar, take a look in the mirror and then restart the conversation (maybe apologize and ask mechila?). You have no idea what a man had in his heart a decade ago. Being a baal tayva and knowing you will fail on occasion isn’t mevatel kabolas mitzvos -if it was there would be no geirim ever-.
Nobody goes through life and follows the rules 100% of the time, nobody. Breaking the rules does not make you chutz l’machene, it just means you will have to do teshuva.
Once you are focusing on the ramifications of leaving this world consider the numerous times the Torah commands us to love the Ger and not pain him.
TLKY,
Yes, at least l’chumra. Imagine if Berel decides to con someone by “selling” his house. So Berel finds a Shmerel and tells him he needs money quick, “if you give me cash you can have my house for 100 grand” and the house is worth 200 grand. Shmerel, not realizing that Berel is just planning on keeping the money and not leaving the house, gives Berel 100 grand in cash and they sign a shtar. When Shmerel shows up a week later with his U-haul, Berel says “I don’t know what you are talking about.”
When Shmerel takes his shtar to Bais Din, does he get the house or does he only get his money back?
The person involved has no neemonus.
WHO says he needs ne’emanus? The default assumption is that the conversion was valid.
Gerus is not for amateurs
Neither is passeling a geirus b’dieved for amateurs.
Believe me, I don’t think the guy’s a tzaddik, but unless there’s a psak from a legitimate posek passeling his geirus, I think we have to assume it was valid, and unfortunately, this Yid is oiver on huge aveiros (M”Z and chillul Hashem).
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