- This topic has 95 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 12 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
There are so many yeshiva bachurim smoking, though b”h the numbers are slowly dwindling in many areas, so I”ll just focus on the preventative side to the smoking. Not stopping those that have already started.
Why can’t we have campaigns against smoking in elementary school?
Secondly, Why in tarnation is smoking “permitted” on purim in many areas when it is not accepted the rest of the year? Don’t those against smoking have enough common sense to forbid smoking altogether once they are already anti-smoking?
I don’t have an answer, but I can say with certainty that when my daughter is of the age, she won’t even consider HEARING about a bochur who smokes. She sees people smoking and rails about what a disgusting habit it is. You can smell it on them hours later. Putting those cancer sticks in your mouth is as bad as loshon hora coming out.
Just think about what would happen to a GIRL who smoked!
Truth be told, nicotine is a DRUG. It is addictive, it is mood-changing, and it is – by most reports – harder to kick than heroin. It takes five-six tries for even a motivated person to quit smoking. It took me five tries, and that was with recurrent bronchitis.
Plus, it can kill your family members too.
A thought – nicotine is a mood equalizer. If you’re nervous, it makes you calm. If you’re depressed, it gives you an “up.” The question to ask here is, “Why does this bochur need to smoke? What is wrong with him that he needs a drug to feel like he can cope? What in his emotional life is not in order? Do I want my daughter to marry a guy who has this kind of problem?”
To Hale,
First of all we have a blog on smoking- I don’t see the need for another one. I think nothing should ever be totally forbidden, so it’s good for people to smoke on Purim. 1. They don’t feel they are missing out on something. 2. They see it’s not as great as these smokers make it out to be.
A general rule in life is -the more you say you shouldn’t or can’t have something -the more you want it!
If a girl smoked, there is no reputable shadchan who would redt her a shidduch. She would be thought to be trashy. If ever there were a double standard, this is it!
We once took a poll in 12th grade of how many girls would consider marrying a smoker. I think three out of about eighty girls said they would consider it and all of those three said on the condition they he stops smoking before marriage.
um…so you advocate the occasional use of drugs…eh?
Torahis1, that most CERTAINLY is a double standard! I am personally unalterably opposed to smoking, whether by a male OR female, but please do not try to say it is somehow less disgusting, smelly, filty, a turnoff, or unhealthy when it is a BOCHUR doing it. It only LOOKS worse for a girl, because we are conditioned to view girls differently, more like woemn in genreal society were viewed in Victorian times. And btw, you are most incorrect when you say only trashy girls want to smoke. Girls smoke for a variety of reasons, and one of them is because it helps them to lose weight. It is no more unnatural for them to want to than for a boy to want to. The difference is that this obnoxious behavior is not only tolerated, but it is also ENCOURAGED among many bochurim in the Beis Medrash, who are emulating what their rebbies are doing. I want to end my post with the repetition – it is disgusting for ANYONE to smoke, given what we now know about the clear and rpesent danger of its effects from both primary and secondary exposure to it.
torahIs1: I’m an adult, but I can’t explain your post to oomis as I don’t understand it. How is smoking an indication that a girl is trashy? It’s a disgusting habit. But there are a lot of disgusting habits practiced by the frumest people. (Just go to any Shabbos table and note the lack of table manners.) That doesn’t make them trashy.
didn’t s/o (someone) in the cr once say it was mutar? a/o(anyone) remember who that was?
EDITED
“please be gentle on me for i am very fragile.”
If I said anything that was a little harsh-sounding to your fragile self, I apologize. I intended no insult.
“I was not saying that a girl would be trashy because she smoked but rather that it is an indication that she is in general trashy.”
Sorry, but in what way does the second part of your sentence sound materially different from the first? You are saying that a girl smoking somehow demonstrates to the world at large that she is trashy, that ONLY trashy girls want to smoke. That is simply not true, whether you believe it or not. When I went to Seminary (over 35 years ago) in E”Y, my roommate and several other girls all smoked. Not a single one of them was trashy – quite the contrary. They were – to a girl – baalos middos tovos, earnest in their love of learning, kindhearted and frum. One smoked because she was overweight and it helped her to stick to a diet. The other one smoked because her brother (in Yeshivah full-time) smoked. My roommate smoked because she came from another country where it was not viewed as a negative for women to smoke, and she could not break the habit. It also calmed her down when she was feeling a little nervous for some reason. Honestly, I don’t know how any of them mangaed to get through a school day without smoking, but somehow they did.
I cannot condone ANY of those reasons as being a good one for someone male OR female to take up this awful habit. Were it only a health issue at stake, Dayeinu. But it is the health issue, the stench, the fact that smokers are intrusive on NON-smokers’ air space, it is a powerful addiction (I have with my own eyes seen people light up a minute before it was Aus Shabbos, because they could not wait a second longer), and worse – a terrible waste of money literally going up in flames(which if you already have money to burn, you should better give it to Tzedaka, than spend it on poisoning your lungs and the air the rest of us breathe). If girls are trashy because they have a cigarette in their hands, then boys are bums for doing the same. To think otherwise, is being double-standardly judgmental.
“Why can’t the gedolim get up together and say bekol echad that it’s assur gamur?”
My Rov actually DOES hold that way. He was addressing the issue of whether or not one may smoke on Tisha b’Av, and he said that there is no question it would be assur, because it is assur the rest of the year!
they cant do it because as much as they may want to, it would hurt their cridibility.not that theyd be wrong…but because they’d be ignored by most of the frum world. smokers have a very st5rong ability to rationalize their actions…its quite amazing…they’d therefore come to the conclusion that the rabbis were off their rockers…or misled by some zealot.
i was talking to a smoker recently and he said the most amazing bit of purim torah…he said that since smoking isnt assur…and “hakol d’yedai shomayim chutz miyiras hashem”…therefore since hes doing nothing wrong, he couldnt possible die from smoking…any questions???
bombmaniac: tell him to try jumping in front of a bus next.
lol that IS what i told him…he said thats an aveirah because its putting your life in danger. i told him that smoking statistically also does. he said that the rabbonim paskaned its not assur…therefore theres no problem with it…like i said smokers come up with the most ingenious purim torah
EDITED
after much thought i have changed my opinion. I officially hold that is assur to smoke min hatorah,365/solar or 354/lunar days a year. the TORAH says “Ushmartem Meod Es Nafshoseichem’ . NO HETER WHATSOEVER. IF you Can find me a heter i’d love to se it
“”hakol d’yedai shomayim chutz miyiras hashem”…therefore since hes doing nothing wrong, he couldnt possible die from smoking…any questions??? “
It also says in the Torah itself, the halacha “V’nishmarten Me’od es nafshoseichem…” I think that takes precedence over the “hakol b’yedai Shamayim, etc.” At one point, NONE of us, including the medical world, knew how dangerous smoking is. Today’s rabbonim should be paskening differerntly.
As I said…and by the way…moderator…smoking IS a disgusting habit.
EDITED FOR GRAMMAR
EDITED FOR GRAMMAR
Thanks Mod. I wish that would happen more often. 🙂
OK FIRSTLY WHO SAID SMOKING IS ASSUR? YOU OR YOUR RAV? WELL IF ITS YOU THAN IM DEFINITLY ENTILTED TO MY OPINION. IF ITS YOUR RAV HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT THAT MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER RABANIM THAT DONT ASSUR IT? I DONT THINK ANYBODY WILL DISAGREE THAT ITS A TERRIBLE HABIT, BUT HOW ABOUT OBESITY ITS JUST AS BAD MAYBE WORSE WHY DONT I HEAR ANYBODY POSTING ABOUT THAT????? (I THINK I KNOW THE ANSWER CUZ EATING IS SOMTHING EVERBODY!!!! UNDERSTANDS THE DESIRE THEREFORE ITS NOT IRRATIONAL WELL JUST CUZ YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE DESIRE TO SMOKE DOESNT MAKE IT IRRATIONAL.
please do not use all-caps
granted…obesity is a problem…but honestly smoking is an easier problem to solve than obesity, and anyway just because one thing is wrong does not make another thing right
AGUG: YOU R TOTALLY WRONG. smoking is totally assur. I don’t say it, my rav doesn’t say it, the TORAH says it as i mentioned in my last post. If someone smokes continuously he is GUARRANTeeING himself a shorter lifetime. IT IS MEDICALLY PROVEN that it caused cancer c”v, so how can you possibly say that it isn’t assur. why would a bachur start smoking??WHY?? WHY in all the out of town yeshivos are so many bachurim smoking a pack-a-day. AGUG, if you want to see what smoking causes just go to the famouse cancer center in manhattan, YOU WILL SEE OVER THERE, and your opionion will change instantly.
First Rav Smuel Kemmenetski says It’s %100 asur. EVEN ON PURIM. Agug can you tell me the names of the robbonim who say its muter. for some reason those “rabbonim” wish to remain anonymous. anything detrimental to ones health is assur. The rambam says how important it is to stay healthy, he even goes far enough as to call it a mitzvah since by being healthy you can serve Hashem longer.
“BUT HOW ABOUT OBESITY ITS JUST AS BAD MAYBE WORSE WHY DONT I HEAR ANYBODY POSTING ABOUT THAT????? “
That would probably be, because while obesity is potentially dangerous for the person who is obese, it is NOT a habit and it does not cause physical harm to the rest of the world. When you smoke,you ingest the tar and nicotine, but I have to breathe the air you polluted when you exhaled. When I overeat, I am the only one who will gain 10 lbs. and not you, too.
oomis is right, although while obesity itself may not be a habit…that eating style is…but like you said it has no impact on others. besides, its completely irrelevant shifting the focus of the conversation to obesity has no bearing on the fact that smoking is deadly! and the funny thing is, that on a donut there is no sign that says “EATING KILLS!!!” however EVERY cigarette carton has a dire warning to all smokers about the dangers within…i call it selective blindness :D:D:D
EDITED
To compare obesity to smoking that it also should be assur is ridiculous. While I’m not advocating being overweight, scientifically we have never proven a direct link to life threating illnesses like we have with smoking. Did you know smoking DIRECTLY causes Heart disease and Cancer?!
i agree. obesity increases the RISKS of heart disease and diabetes…however smoking DIRECTLY causes lung cancer and emphysema…not to mention heart disease. if the lungs are providing the heart with less oxygen to pass round the body, the heart must pump harder and faster, thus severely weakening the heart.
AGUG: from the way you’ve spoken, it seems that you yourself SMOKE, and just because you do it doesn’t make it mutar.
like i said…smokers have a knack for justifying their habit…
BTW, virtually every smoker I have ever met uses that same old , tired argument about obesity. It is apples and oranges, my friend, and you are trying to deflect when you mention other issues when the real issue is the harm that SMOKING causes to the smoker and the unfortunate rest of the world. If you want to start a thread about obesity, bring it on, but on another thread.
An acquaintance who stopped smoking and went from a small petite size to a (low end) plus size was told by her doctor that she’s still infinitely healthier than had she continued to smoke.
Smoking not only affects the smoker but his/her friends, family spouses, children. Can you live with that guilt?
Smoking is such a ghastly smelly habit and a big money waster.
whether i smoke or not is irrelevant (although im a non smoker) lets work this out objectively without involving our personal lives . in response to the request for names of gedolim that permit smoking for obvious reasons i will not post their names although just take a look out there do some research and youll find that many rosh yesheiva rabbanim that are well respected among our comunitty smoke. what do you say to that?
secondly granted to compare obesity to smoking is a poor comparison (btw to say obesity is not as clinically proven to directly cause diseases and is completely not true its been proven to cause more sicknesses than smoking its the leading cause of death related conditions in the world)on many levels but the point im bringing out is that the main reason many people are baffled by the smokers is that they don’t understand the situation fully.
just in response to tzippi i have a friend that is 350 pounds and is a heavy smoker do you know what his doctor told him?
Agug -You can claim anything you want about obesity, but that doesn’t make it true. Stop spreading the lies -“it’s been proven to cause more sicknesses than smoking -it’s the leading cause of death…conditions in the world”. If you have even one scientific journal, article or source that supports your “facts” please post them. I know you don’t because I’m in the Health Sciences. When I was questioned about smoking addiction – I quoted the medical sources. (See coffee room – “Smoking habit”.) It’s not nice to make up facts, so you shouldn’t be wrong. BTW, do you even know what the leading cause of death worldwide is? It sounds like you are trying to manipulate the readers to your point of view. You want to smoke? Go ahead; many people do, but don’t make false claims just because you feel guilty. And no, I don’t believe you when you say that you’re a non-smoker. You lost your chezkas kashrus with all your posts!
“youll find that many rosh yesheiva rabbanim that are well respected among our comunitty smoke. what do you say to that”
I would probably say that rabbonim are not infallible, sometimes they are not sufficiently up-to-date in certain areas, and they are subject to the same taivas as we all are. Unfortunately, as a result, they may sometimes be nichshal. That does not take away from their deserving to be respected, but a loving family member or respected peer should set them straight.
I would probably say that rabbonim are not infallible, sometimes they are not sufficiently up-to-date in certain areas, and they are subject to the same taivas as we all are. Unfortunately, as a result, they may sometimes be nichshal. That does not take away from their deserving to be respected, but a loving family member or respected peer should set them straight.
that is of your opinion when you ask them they will say its not a good idea to smoke but it ain’t assur
AGUG, my Rov HAS said it is assur to smoke. Clearly your rov holds a differing opinion. I suspect that is probably because smoking is such a powerful addiction, the rabbonim who say it is not assur are afraid that if they actually pasken that it IS assur, they will be responsible for the all-day-long aveiras that their bochurim will be committing by continuing to smoke in spite of the issur.
“oomis1105”
wonderful theory but why cant you settle for a machlokes haposkim?
I have a good friend a heavy smoker he tells me all the time that he regrets starting. you wont find a happy smoker nobody wants to smoke they smoke because there addicted. right or wrong is not the issue we are talking about people who can’t stop if they were able to they would. all smokers start because they think they wont get addicted.stopping young people from smoking is virtuous even to the heaviest smokers. But being judgmental towards
smokers is thouhgtless and borders arrogance. no one appreciates it
I know someone who quit when he moved to a state with higher taxes. He could no longer afford to buy cigarettes.
” But being judgmental towards smokers is thouhgtless and borders arrogance. no one appreciates it”
People are judgmental, as you put it, because the smoker is not only harming him/herself. We also have to breathe in the polluted environment that the smoker has filled with assorted toxins. In this equasion, the only thoughtless people tend to be those smokers who(bordering on arrogance) feel the sense of entitlement to smoke where and when they want, no matter whose lives are being affected by it. If one wishes to smoke, then perhaps he should get a helmet like the astronauts wear in space, and smoke while wearing it. At least he will be the only one breathing that foul stuff.
aj_briskdude: Yidden who smoke in public around other people are
Choteh Umachti Es Horabim, be it Beratzon or Beshoygeig!!!
Any young Shnook who started smoking in the past 15 years is
(unless living in a bubble) was well aware of
1) its dangers to health (which makes it an Issur D’oraisah)
2) I’ts addictive nature. If almost every scientist and doctor says that if one
drinks a cup of bleach or ammonia they are putting their life in danger,
just because an idiot doesn’t believe them, that doesn’t make his choice to start
smoking muttar even if his friend are doing it.
(It doesn’t make him an Oines in my opinion either) rather a Shoiteh!
Al tifoish min hatzibbur is not said when the tzibbur is being oiver Isurim.
The diiference is only they dont immediately see the slow process of death
for it is slow, that still makes them Shoitim.
If the doctor told most of these boys they had one week left to live
you would see how many would kick the habit, even the most addicted.
This is different than those older people who are already dying
and refuse to stop smoking. that is a choice they make not to lose
the enjoyment they get cause they’re anyway on death’s doorstep.
I apologize to any who feel I’m speaking to harshly, but I feel
this is Sakanos Nefashos and a WAKE UP call is in order.
By holding your hand and telling you it’s ok.. I understand….
it will not help you get out of this miserable quicksand you stepped into.
May HB”H give Sechel to all those nebach who need it, and help them
see the light!!!
beinhasedorim, you were not harsh in any way, shape, or form. “Hocheach Tochiach es amitecha” means that we have to give this mussar, EVEN when someone perceives it as tochacha.
AGUG: You still haven’t answered me. there is a issur STRAIGHT out in the torah that it is assur to smoke, what more can you get then that. As stated before you have TRULY lost your chezkas kashrus, and i also don’t believe that you don’t smoke. your opinion is totally absurd. Go to SLOAN KETTERING MEDICAL CENTER, the top cancer center in america, and you’ll see over there what smoking causes, you can speak to all the patients and ask them if it’s worth smoking to cut off many years of your life c”v.
ONLY after you go there will your opinion change, because no one over here in the cr seems to be able to convince you that smoking is assur. It isn’t an opinion whether it is assur or not, IT’S A FACT!!! AND GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HARD HEAD. As stated before it says straight out in the torah that it’s assur, you don’t need to go to your rav.
firstly, it’s “v’nishmartem meod lenafshoseichem”
and it’s “hakol b’yidei shamayim chutz m’yiras shamayim”
about smoking, very nice to say that girls would never consider a smoker. well, guess what – most of those girls will end up dating smokers because you have no idea before you go out with someone if the boy smokes. although some people do, many people dont think of asking about every boy if he smokes or not. even when you do ask, the references dont always know if the boys smoke or not, and if the boys smoke but not heavily, the references will not always tell you.
so…, girls out there.. if you want to know if a boy smokes – ask him! that’s the only way to really find out. and you’ll be surprised to find out how many times the answer will be yes. at that point, if he wont tell you, you have bigger problems to deal with…
So many yeshiva boys smoke and many of these are top learners. the roshei yeshiva dont speak against it because some of them smoke themselves. how can you blame a boy for smoking when his father smokes, his brothers all smoke, all his friends smoke and his rosh yeshiva smokes????
i heard of a certain yeshiva that before second seder the whole yeshiva packs out for smoking time!!! bochurim and maggidei shiur…they all pack out together! if this is who the boys are learning from, why would they stop??
HASHEM IS EVERYWHERE
allow me to explain, while i disagree with much that AGUG has posted. i would be careful say “its assur , its written straight in the torah”. as much as we would love the torah to agree with our opinion. we cannot decide for ourselves,halacha says what it has to say the torah stes the guidelines for the halacha,not us. not every bad habit,trait or practice is muttar or assur .it may be bad middos, arrogance carelessness,but you cant put your own ideas into halacha! we therefore consult our rabbanim
PS just to quote you. R MOSHE FEINSTEIN discusses the dangers of smoking, and says that its muttar
WHILE ITS A DISCUSSION AMONG TODAYS POSKIM IF THAT PS’AK STILL STANDS. CAUTION IS ALWAYS URGED WHEN PLAYING WITH FIRE!!!(PUN INTENDED)
being around many bachruim that smoke gives me the opportunity to introduce the outside world to the reality of what goes on in a smoking bachurs life
with utmost certainty i can say that at least 85% or more of smoking bachurim will have stopped by the time they are in married if these factors are prevalent
1. they are being “matzliach in yeshiva
2. they don’t have any smokers in there immediate family
3. (probably most important)there parents knew and accepted the fact that they where smokers therefore giving them the opportunity to constantly gave them the courage and support necessary for them to stop. as opposed to those who constantly hid it from there parents.
i therefore encourage parents to be open with there child about smoking. and most important allow him to be open with you!
thats all well and good once they already started….the point is they shouldnt start in the first place…
bombmaniac
granted. they should even stop one they have started its unwise, foolish and unhealthy.
well so is claiming to know more halacha than respected poskim.
- The topic ‘Good Bachurim Can Smoke?! What’s the Purim Heter?’ is closed to new replies.