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popa, from the presentation of the kedushas shoshanim here, it appears the kedushas shoshanim defined undressed to include bathing gear.
so right:
still irrelevant. We are discussing whether there is a separate issur of mixed swimming in addition to the issur of seeing women undressed.
popa, how is it irrelevant?? if you can’t even see her in her bathing gear, surely you cannot swim with her!
You mean to say because you will see her. I was discussing the claim that there is a separate, additional issur
obviously. i’m not sure why you’re splitting hairs on a technicality. its obvious if you swim with someone, you will see that person in their bathing gear. so the result is if you can’t see them like that, you can’t swim with them.
I am splitting hairs because people on this forum are inventing new issurim. Read the whole thread please.
iow, iiuyc you don’t disagree with the net result, just with the halachic path how you got there.
correct. and there are likely halachic ramifications. For example, all the case of the father and daughter or the blind man.
I really was only taking issue with the cavalier attitude some had with inventing halacha. I’m sorry if I sounded harsh.
not at all, i just wanted to understand. so the blind man would be okay swimming, since it is a seeing issue, while the husband and wife could not. where does the father – daughter situation fall in this situation?
I don’t know.
thanks for your insights!
Help!
Ok, so it’s clear that discussion is not relevant as far as yemey niddasah, right? We speak of yemey tehorah. The only source I have seen here to forbid is this Kedushas Shoshanim. Again, if a husband & wife are muteres, and even to see mekomos hamecusim (aka Shabbos 142b etc. top of my head and the fact the Shulchan Aruch finds a need to forbid mekomos hamecusim during yemey tumasah! why, it’s always assur!), as is mefurash in many places in shas and shulchan aruch – this kedudas shoshanim – speaks of a hanagah of kedudasha.
Which, of course, would not be relevant at all against the Shulchan Aruch.
And who is this sefer? A Rishon? An Achron? An old Yerushalmer? In Halacha, we work through shas, rishonim, shulchan aruch and the poskim. Random seforim usually we aren’t machshiv, if they are not coming from a place of Halacha. I have never heard of this sefer. The Hanagah of Avraham Avinu is wonderful; it’s obviously not a lav d’orayasah or d’rabban. One would be hard pressed to find it in the Money HaMitzvos – or in Shulchan Aruch!
(Other relatives brother & sister, father & daugther, are a different discussion, because they are Arayos, yet more kirvah is permitted w/them because a person doesn’t have tayvos for them – which is not the case by one’s wife – again, b’yemey tehorasa! and I’d like to get this Kedushas Shoshanim out of the way first)
popa,
I have come to respect what you say here, which is why I am very surprised to read what you wrote.
I assure you that I did not “invent” what I said. My mistake was only in thinking that what I was told about this was common knowledge amongst those who have learned the inyannim. I stand by what I said as far as I myself am concerned, but I will gladly desist from offering anything to this conversation.
BTW, swimming is a great way to lose weight, so if you’re OK with going maybe you’ll be able to sit on benches again 🙂
The Kedushas Shoshanim says perek 17 seif 4 that yur not aloud to look at yur wife undressed even when tahor. This is from Avrohom Avinu who never looked at Soroh so that we didnt know how beautiful she was until he acidently looked at her reflection in the river. This isnot a chumra but actual halachah. So swimming with yur wife is 100% assur. Theres nothing to talk about.
I know this is off topic but I head very differently. Of course Avraham looked at Sarah but he saw her as a whole person, inside and out. Think of your good friends, if someone asked if they were good-looking based only on their looks, it’s hard because you see them as a person, not as just what they look like. So then when they were going to Mitzrayim, he saw her reflection in the water which was pure gashmiyus, he realized how pretty she was. (I think this was a Rashi)
I checked Heberewbooks.org for Kedushas Shoshanim and it wasn’t there. It must be obscure.
squeak:
I apologize for coming across harsh. I have a certain style which comes out once I get worked up.
I do not know if you are correct; I was hoping someone was going to quote a written source. I always do appreciate your comments.
Popa, I commend you for keeping the tone respectful here. Thank you!
Resolution of this issue would be helpful – I, quite perhaps incorrectly, bifurcated the issue to include (a) swimming and (b) inappropriate viewing. Which leads, then, to a question of whether mixed swimming would be permitted where all parties are dressed in whatever we define as tznius –
So, let’s start with a proposition that one accepts the “tznius” bathing suits (yes, there are those who say that even the long shirt/sleeve/skirt suits can cling when wet, but for the purposes of this discussion, let’s operate with an assumption that the suits retain the proper level of tzinius at all times/conditions, and that the men (again, operating on a hypothetical) are similarly covered in an appropriate swim short and trunks of an appropriate length (knee length? board shorts? pick your poison) –
But – aside from the issue of appropriate clothing – is there an issur of being in the same pool with an unrelated person of the opposite sex?
If it is early in the morning, or late in afternoon, one does frequently see frum families on the beach or boardwalk as the bathers have covered up or left by then.
It would be a terrible shame that frum people could never enjoy the beauty of the sand and ocean, otherwise. In addition, those who jog in the summer know that very often it is simply too hot except along the water where there is a constant cool sea-breeze blowing.
Where I live, the beach doesn’t open until 10 AM, although I don’t think it is locked before that, but if you are out of the boardwalk by 9 AM (maybe the lifeguards come early), it is a very small chance that anybody will be there. After 5 PM, similarly, there is only a very small chance anybody is still dressed inappropriately. My question then is if there is only a very small chance, does one still have to stay away?
Even on the streets, one may see a jogger dressed inappropriately. Does that mean one could never jog? Where I used to live, there was a major street along a river with a jogging path, and the joggers there probably were worse dressed than any beach. What is the halacha in that case?
Must one give up things that are healthy and one enjoys, on the chance that other people may come along who are not dressed well? Certainly, those who go to work do not have to avoid the subways, even though the dress there is not exactly 100%. The question is when it is not for a necessity, does one still have to avoid going anywhere when there is a chance of seeing somebody. When running, one really doesn’t focus on anything except runnning, because if he stops to look at something, he is not getting any exercise, and if he does not stop, he may crash into something.
So the question is what must the chances be that something inappropriate will come along in order to make one avoid an activity. 1%, 50%, 100%?
Another point is that where I used to live, there were many parks and grassy squares all around town, and in the summer, there were tons of sunbathers wherever you went. Did one have to avoid taking his kids to the playground?
Pashuteh Yid – “It would be a terrible shame that frum people could never enjoy the beauty of the sand and ocean, otherwise.”
That may be true, but it is not an adequate reason to do something halachicly questionable. (I am not saying that one should not go to the beach later or earlier than everybody else, only that this last statement has no bearing on the discussion.)
“In addition, those who jog in the summer know that very often it is simply too hot except along the water where there is a constant cool sea-breeze blowing.”
Well than either don’t go jogging or brave the hear, but the halacha is non-negotiable.
“Where I used to live, there was a major street along a river with a jogging path, and the joggers there probably were worse dressed than any beach. What is the halacha in that case?”
I believe there is a Gemora that says that if one has two possible ways to get somwhere, and one he knows he will pass by inappropriately dressed women and one he won’t, he must take the other path even if it takes longer.
“So the question is what must the chances be that something inappropriate will come along in order to make one avoid an activity. 1%, 50%, 100%?”
I would imagine it’s about 50, but then again I’m no posek. So as always, all halacha li’maseh shailos should be asked to your LOR.
for all those interested, there is such a thing as deserted beaches, where there isn’t proper parking… whatever. (obviously it matters where you live but i’m sure every place has it’s deserted beaches.)
If the beaches are deserted (no lifeguards)then they are very unsafe to swim in them. Just from the standpoint alone of v’nishmartem meod es nafshoseichem, it would be assur to swim there.
oonis1105 – Either you could go with a freind/relative who is a lifeguard, or just go to “enjoy the beauty of the sand and ocean”.
“If the beaches are deserted (no lifeguards)then they are very unsafe to swim in them. Just from the standpoint alone of v’nishmartem meod es nafshoseichem, it would be assur to swim there.”
Its as unsafe as you let it be. If you respect were you are, and use your brains it isn’t dangerous.
mosherose: 1st of all, is the kedushas shoshnim saying it’s halacha, or hanhaga of more kedusha?
secondly, as far as his view, what would be during yemei tahara if the wife would go in a non clingy even when wet fully tznius bathing suit?
Oomis, what are the statistics regarding someone drowning while swimming unsupervised?
this is the best i could find
it is referring to swimming pools also
it includes inebriated persons as well as those swimming alone
The Center for Disease Control and Prevention, or CDC, lists an average of 3,500 unintentional drownings every year for the past decade. This averages out to 10 drowning-related deaths per day. Men were four times more likely than women to die from unintentional drowning deaths.
oomis- not everyone goes to the beach to go swimming
tomim tehiyeh it doesn’t matter what the statistics are, no one wants to be part of that small percent.
Every single drowning that has made the papers in recent years, has occurred when there was no lifeguard on duty, before or after normal swimming hours.
In Far Rockaway, a little girl was swept away in knee deep water, as her horrified father (or uncle) looked on helplessly. the other kids had to be pulled from the water, too, but they survived. A girl downed recently on a school trip, some boys drowned when one fell in and the other jumped in to try to save him. No one survived, and there was no LG. If it happens even ONE time, it is one time too many.
As far as contacts removed to the extent that he only sees blobs, I can not imagine anyone being Mattir such a thing. The guy sees the color and knows what it is. If that is not Hirhur inducing, what is? Is this really ligher than Bigdei Tzivonim?
There is also another issue. The mere fact that someone breached something like this and is very aware of the situation that he is in, causes Hirhur. This would apply even to a blind man. You can compare this this to Negeea while under the influence of an externally numbing drug.
The Kalus Rosh theory does come in to play if they are there together as a group. Otherwise, you can not say that the people at the site are in engaged in Kalus Rosh together, because they are not doing anything together per se. However, even with very Tzeniesdike bathing suits, at best it would be like doing exercise in a group, which we refrain from doing. These are expressions of the body and just as mixed dancing is Assur (even according to oomis, I think), this too would not be any better.
About the drowning issue, isn’t it a mitzva from the torah to teach your children to swim?? How could it be that so many people-adults (especially in the NY-NJ areas) who never learned how to swim? And it doesn’t end there but the children don’t learn how to swim either!! Parents have an obligation to teach or to pay for swimming classes.
Now about mixed swimming, I have never heard of ANY heter allowing mixed swimming or to go places where people are inapropiatly dressed. Even if the person who isn’t dressed correctly is an 80 year old or weighs 300 lbs it is not allowed. Period.
mybat, keep in mind unfortunately people can drown even if they know how to swim. Especially if its by the beach, there are very strong currents that you cant recognize from the beach (i forgot what it’s called, it goes in a circular motion downward. Many pple who know how to swim have drowned in this type of current) besides, any strong wave can pull someone out there and even a very good swimmer can ch”v drown.
undertow, riptide
moshe rose did you see my Q above?????
rip currents. But the chances are greater for that to happen when there is no lifeguard around. Also, lifeguards are both trained to SPOT rip currents (and order people out of the water in that case), and to rescue someone in trouble who is caught in that rip current. They also have flotation devices, something that most swimmers do not.
“mosherose: 1st of all, is the kedushas shoshnim saying it’s halacha, or hanhaga of more kedusha?
secondly, as far as his view, what would be during yemei tahara if the wife would go in a non clingy even when wet fully tznius bathing suit? “
Sorry I only have internet access in school and I was not in school most of the summer.
The Kedushas Shoshanim says that it is completely assur to swim even privately with your own wife. He doesnt say specifikally about if she wore such a tznius suit but how many peopel go swimming with their wifes wearing such a suit? Most wifes would wear a regular suit and the Kedushas Shoshanim says that its assur to look at your wife even when not a nidda if shes not dressed tznius. He says this as halacha not minhag or chumra.
Moshe Rose, it is very nice that you bring this mekora from this sefer. If you believe in this sefer and the mechaber, then you should definitely follow everything he says. That being said, it doesn’t mean that your belief in the mechaber must transfer to everyone. If anyone has a sheilah about this or wants to know if he/she can go swimming with their own spouse they should ask their own Rav or their own Rosh Yeshiva.
This here is just a blog and not a place to pasken halacha, so each of us knows what we know and unfortunately we are sharing, but we are not rabbonim or dayanim and we are not allowed to pasken for one another what is proper halacha or not. So before you start having shalom bayis issues with your spouse, go to your own RAV and ask your own sheilos. And while your at it, ask them about speaking to your wife too.
You can swim without lifeguards. I’ve done it many times. You just have to be extra viligent. Also, understand how the ocean works. There is always counter flow current from the waves -you have to stay above that. Rip tides -if you don’t fight them you don’t have to worry. If it pulls you out to sea and it’s too strong to swim straight back to land, swim in a diagonal course. Of course before you jump in, make sure the water is calm. You don’t want to be swimming in big waves like we’ve seen with Earl. The body floats, but when there are a lot of waves the water can crash over your head. If you can’t swim without lifeguards -how can the lifeguard swim to save you -who will rescue him? Kids need lifeguards.
Mosherose -It’s ossur to go to college esp. if they have internet access!
Sof davar hn- The only current that goes in a downward direction is a whirlpool. These are very not common.
Mosherose -It’s ossur to go to college esp. if they have internet access!
I’ve asked him many times why he’s on the internet(I hope it doesn’t go furthur than YW) even if it’s assur and not once got a response.
Some people just choose which area they’d like to be extra frum in.
“I’ve asked him many times why he’s on the internet(I hope it doesn’t go furthur than YW) even if it’s assur and not once got a response.”
I spoke with my rav and rosh yeshiva on this and they okayed my going to college under theyre supervision and that means being on the internet. I got a list of sites Im allowed to visit and yeshivaworld is one of them.
i can’t help but comment; my goodness, mosherose is a very interesting combination of college, internet, but very very very right winged in certain areas.
Well mosherose, you got a heter from your rav for college and internet. My rav, and many others, allow talking to and swimming with your wife.
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