Going on Vacation without a Minyan

listen my dear friends. we are avoiding the main issue.
we all know that there are many yidden would never go to a place where there is no minyan and no mikva to be used before davening. and there are those that they would go without even thinking its an issue.
ask yourself how is your dedication to a mityzva, hidur mitzva??? after all its chodesh elul, right time for cheshbon hanefesh

There is no question that if you are in a place where there is no minyan, and the closest minyan is more than 18 minutes out of your way, you are permitted to daven without one. The question posed here is whether it is permitted lechatchila to put oneself in such a situation, by going to such a place for no compelling reason but as mere amusement, טיול בעלמא.

I will pose a better question: is it permitted lechatchila, for טיול בעלמא, to put oneself in a situation where pikuach nefesh will require one to break shabbos? If this is permitted then kol shekein it is permitted to go somewhere where there is no minyan.

Well, we have an answer to this question: If it is for טיול בעלמא then it is not permitted in the second half of the week, when one ought already to be thinking about Shabbos, but it is permitted in the first half of the week. If it’s for a more important purpose then it’s allowed even on Erev Shabbos. (Sh”A OC 248:3)

When is one supposed to be planning for the next tefillah? For shachris from the first light, for mincha from mincha ketana, and for maariv from sunset. In each case, once one has davened one need not plan for the next tefillah until its time comes. So it would seem to me that it is permitted to go on such a journey, even for טיול בעלמא, so long as one does not leave at a time when one has a chiyuv tefillah pending right then.

A Question:
Did Yidden, especially rabbonim, who traveled from city to city via horse & buggy years ago daven with a minyan? Or those holy tzaddikim who “praah’ved” golus, travelling and stopping at inns for weeks , daven with a minyan? Or rabbonim during the Middle- to rather -modern, Ages who wended their ways to EY , sometimes by boat, daven with a minyan?
For the most part, I don’t think so.

Mill,

Good point, however the very concept of ‘Minyan’ to Shabbos or any other definite mitzvah is no comparison. Please refer to the above link i posted from Rav Henkin’s psak.

Zion,

You can take it a step further, people lived in villages all yr long without any minyan. (See beg of Mesechet Megilah) They had no obligation to go move elsewhere.

However, tzadikim were able to have proper kavanah, whereas us simple folks do not, so losing out on minyan effects our tefilah. That is something one should take into consideration. Nonetheless, from halachik perspective is a diff story.

?However, tzadikim were able to have proper kavanah, whereas us simple folks do not, so losing out on minyan effects our tefilah. That is something one should take into consideration [when planning travel]”

I respectfully suggest that for many of us, its easier to daven with kavanah by ourselves w/o a minyan as compared to the talking, gossipiing, walking in and out, etc. one encounters these days at many minyanim

👍 Meno

My 2 cents….

If the vacation (and I am discussing a vacation, a trip for pleasure, NOT the need to go somewhere for medical help or other pressing matter) to location X is desired because of specific amenities (eg, spa, roller coaster, hotel suite) not available elsewhere, it shows that amenity X is more important than tefilla bitzibur. to that I say, how sad, that someone doesnt understand the importance of tefila bitzibur, or assigns it a lower priority than that amenity.

Would this question be somehow related to the one on succos, may one travel somewhere where he will not have a succa and just eat things that dont require a succa?

If the vacation (and I am discussing a vacation, a trip for pleasure, NOT the need to go somewhere for medical help or other pressing matter) to location X is desired because of specific amenities (eg, spa, roller coaster, hotel suite) not available elsewhere, it shows that amenity X is more important than tefilla bitzibur. to that I say, how sad, that someone doesnt understand the importance of tefila bitzibur, or assigns it a lower priority than that amenity

One might want to go on vacation to see a wonder of Hashem, many of these places do not have Minyanim, Like if you want to see the Aurora Borelalis , A Solar Eclipse or the Geysers of Yellowstone for example

apushatayid…….you would be amazed how often we have found minyanim forming up spontaneously at Old Faithful in Yellowstone Park (no pun intended) and other national monuments and other major tourist locations where groups of yidden are visiting and “solicit” other yidden to join them in a minyan for mincha. I think the issue here is whether is willing to forego travel to all but the US, EY and a few major cities or on occasion, daven b’yachid to be able to see the Ebeshter’s world. One might ask why would the Ebeshter have created these locations if his yidden were foreclosed from seeing the wonders of his creations?

If people want to go to a cottage or another place without a minyan here is a perfect solution try making a group trip to that area where there will be at least ten men & borrow a sefer Torah than there will be a Minyan.

ZD

If there is a bracha on an eclipse, what is it and what is your source for that?

(Hint: there isn’t one)

ZionGate, all your examples are of travel for a purpose, not for mere amusement. Such travel may be initiated even on Erev Shabbos, knowing that pikuach nefesh will require chilul shabbos along the way. Kol shekein it may be initiated even in the knowledge that there will be no minyan. The question we’re discussing here is whether one may go where there is no minyan for no good reason, but merely for amusement.

if someone is truly traveling lesheim shamayim, to see the wonders of hashems world, that does not fall into the “vacation” I mentioned. Now, one may certainly talk himself into this rationale, and thats fine, just remember the only one you are fooling is yourself, you certainly are not fooling hashem.

Eclipse is considered the sun or the moon is hit, so there is no brocho.

Firstly I would like to refer you to an explicit Teshuva of the late Rav Wosner ZT”L on this subject in his Shevet Halevi (you will find the exact location in the index).
Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.
Secondly given the many tragedies and dangers r”l during the holidays people are certainly advised at least to do some proper davening with Minyan.

apush..

“just remember the only one you are fooling is yourself, you certainly are not fooling hashem.’

That goes to every action including the bitul torah it creates. Minyan is only a hiddur and Bitul Torah is something you can never really rectify.

Mainly, when one goes for vacation to recharge and be able to continue with avodas hashem/life as a jew that too is enough of a reason…

David,

“Rav Chaim Kanievsky also made it clear that people should daven all tefillos with a Minyan during Bein Hazmanim.”

That does not help the very question in OP, as of course one should daven with minyan wherein its available.
The issue is if one should refrain to travel vacationing for the lack of minyan..

In regard to Halcaha I posted earlier, and will re-post again:

Here is a fascinating responsum from haPosek HaGadol Rav Henkin ZT”L in his sefer פירושי לב איברא.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=158&hilite=

He is basically saying the Chiyuv to be ‘Mishtatef b’Minyan’ only pertains when one is next to a minyan, otherwise, it is basically only a hiddur..

Come on, he might say there is no chiyuv, but he does not relegate it to “hiddur”. In fact, he says one should daven IN A SHUL even without a minyan because of the maala of a shul. The teshuva explicitly says there is no chiyuv to daven with a minyan, however it is your extrapolation that relegates it to a “hiddur”.

“In fact, he says one should daven IN A SHUL even without a minyan because of the maala of a shul”

Hidur is still sort of a’ Chiyuv’ (though with limits – see B”K 9b). So I don’t see where in contradicts.

“……Gaon and those admorim make a minyan when they go to Switzerland. Do they go to Peru to see machu pichu or to Greece to see the clear blue waters of those beaches?…..”

And if they did, what would be wrong with that? Somehow , I’m sure they’d get their minyan there… Who pays anyway???

“…..The natural wonders excuse is a cover up for bad intentions, by many lay jews….”.
Boom…!!! Kindly explain “bad intentions.”

Rav Shamshon R. Hirsch, on the verse “Kol Hashem Behadar”:
The voice of Hashem is IN beauty, BE’hadar……. Whatever and wherever a person sees and finds beauty in this world, be it an idea, a dvar Torah, a flower, art. music, waters of Greece, geysers, Mach Picchu and hippos,…. Hashem’s voice speaks through it .
So, was the intention of your thread to bash Yidden and their bad intentions?

If you want to go somewhere tzniut, go to San Francisco. Nobody is dressing untzniut there, Its really cold there, I needed to buy a sweatshirt in the middle of August