Going off the Derech

Hi

MDG-shira- interjection..

you are all so correct. I also had ‘shul issues’ and now my boys will not go daven with my dh..

then dad gets angry why they dont go with him.. and then we start the ‘blame game’.

some go daven in different places at the right time-early enough in the morn.. others daven shachris at home and go out for mussaf.. and maybe they dont even get to the shul.

others dont make it home for the se’uda.

one other thing. Has anyone heard of ‘Yeshiva Shalom Rav’?

this is a yeshiva in Zfas for ‘been thru it’ teenagers..

movies,drugs, dysfunctional and abusive homes and everything else.

they hav shiurim.. play.. plant.. build..they keep them busy.

this may be an idea for some teenager ‘here’.

English speaking!

WOW- I understand you .I felt the same way bec our family is BH not dysfunctional. basically though they are all out of the box and that is their common denominator..

yes they are exposed to more ‘experienced’ guys but who said they were not associating with them on the streets of whereever you live.

In williamsburg Brooklyn, R’ Yoel Roth also has a loose learning yeshiva and those that want to learn more join that shiur..

they sing to Hashem and do other ehrliche non-learning activities.

Definitely troubled kids, but a thousand times better than the ones in Zfas..

I understand, but the main problem and the immediate danger is not the piercing or the movies and the like. Tell me, how is he planning to pay for his new lifestyle? Which is much less frugal than yours, not to mention that he’ll need some place to live. I am really concerned he will sooner or later do something stupid, and in the secular world there is very little leeway. He does not have many people to rely upon, much less people to whom he feels he can talk freely about everything and that will support him. A small mistake that under ordinary circumstances would be nothing, people learn a lesson and go on with their life, can be the beginning of a nightmare R’L. I do not know if you should be blunt (eg what to answer when he asks if you’d kick him out) as I don’t know your son (not that I am aware of) – but I do think you should worry about serious issues, such as being arrested and possibly going to prison R’L, such as getting serious diseases (eg from “cheap” piercing or tattoo studios, Hep B is everywhere in Israel especially recently with all the immigration) R’L and believe me there are many other health issues which require a good doctor (I have the impression he does not have one he trusts with confidentiality, and anyway would be too embarrassed), and have you considered the risk of feeling overwhelmed by shame (at whatever trouble he runs into and is about to become known in public), and R’L very bad things can happen in this case too.

I also believe you should also worry seriously about your other children, I believe you are underestimating how much they are suffering and what is at stake. I realize you are very worried about your son’s observance, but you have to try to keep your head cool, especially if you keep into account that other community members may feel some steps are necessary in order to protect themselves and their own children.

WOW- if he is willing to be in Yeshiva maybe you can find a yeshiva dorm that is the type he would associate with… and I don’t mean ‘Rechovot’- if you get what I mean…

As much as I am reading some comments and agree with them, I want to add my own “2 cents”. I am someone from a frum background, who in his later years is having trouble remaining frum.

I believe if one tends to “explore” other options at a young age, he will be more likely to hang out with this chevra for a year or two, and eventually come back. I’ve seen it happen on many occasions, and they are doing quite well in the yeshiva world.

I, on the other hand, is struggling later in my 30’s as if I would have done so in my earlier years – perhaps by now, I would have been “choizer” already.

What I’m trying to say is, he’s a teenager. They go through fazes in life. They like to try out things. Being in the Frum world, people think that if they hang out with a bum crowd – automatically, they are going OFF THE DERECH. Its not so, they are just in a teenage faze. If we would look around at our goyishe partners in our lives, we would see it happens to their children too- just on a different, perhaps higher scale.

Drugs abuse, alcohol, parties… etc. When we see our kids (who are in FRUM YESHIVISHE high schools) we don’t think to expect our kids to do something like that. And even if something does happen- on a much lower scale, we tend to go berserk and chas v’shalom, the kid should even be thinking about doing those things. I say- the younger one experiences this, the quicker he will get “back on track”… if you push him to do something he doesn’t want to do- and tries to please you all the time, then there may be more consequences later on his life, when it may be too “late”.

Let him try out his latest fad, hang out with this chevra who you claim is “going off the derech”… and he will come to his senses quicker than you think. And just relax, accept him… help him. Perhaps tell him, there are some groups of guys hanging out in such and such a place (NCSY, etc) and let him experience different folks that way in a much better settings. NCSY is very good at what they do, and they provide a atmosphere which allows the teen to feel he is not alone, and that there are others like him in this situation, yet a steadfast jewish. And it also comes up with well-trained yeshivish chevra who can keep him on track.

And for a answer to the second son, don’t push anything onto him either. The trick is, DONOT push anything onto either of him.

Ever heard of the phrase- trying to much-? They will see it, and latch on to it, as you said- they will test you. The second son will see you are pushing him to keep him away from his older brother, and he will resent it even more. Give both kids their space. If you see, your older son is influencing him too much, then is time to perhaps step in, and give a warning. But, if nothing is going wrong, then just let them be. Don’t be the ones to push your agenda on them, because both of them will resent it. Allow your older son to do what he does, but don’t say anything negative to your younger son that he is off the derech, or criticize him in any way. Your younger son will just become angry with you for “disowning” his older brother. Then, both will be lost. Give them space. They need it at this time. Teenage years is a time to try other things, it’s a faze. And if done right, will pass…

I need to ask my son with the ‘crazy schedule’..

I hope to see him soon, before i go out to work..

The name begins with a ‘g’..

I am not sure where this long thread has meandered, but I am posting to the title.

A lot of the derech deviation issues on the teenage level have to do with stupidity, shmiros haloshon, and gaiva from OTHER people who think they are on the derech.

Specifically, and simply, yeshivas are heavily geared to reward people who are exceedingly left brain hemisphere oriented. The logical, sequential, orderly thinking part of the brain. Included are those who are very good at “parroting” information. And the more exact, the great the reward given to that kind of learner. And rightfully so!

However, those learners who Hashem created right brain hemisphere oriented, or heavily dominated by that portion of the brain, excel in abstract thought, creative thought, deep thought, spatial thought..etc…and the more they are influenced by that portion of the brain, they more thay are left out of the curriculum and suffer boredom and find it painful to sit a whole day.

Such students would do better in Montessori type projects (for gifted) where they work with projects and not passive lectures.

The second group of teens I just mentinoed, then become labeled with “he is one of those kids”. They get lost in the mix. They are not looked at with a sense of esteem. And the wander until they cant put up with it anymore.

In fact, right hemisphere learners frequently do better on IQ tests.

In our community, from what I have seen, those who are not equally balanced, but lean more to right hemisphere thinking, are being done an injustice since the curriculum is not geared to their success. This is followed up by ignorant adults who label the kids as not being as Jewish as they should be…and on and on.

This is what happens when standardized education is not employed, nor people who are properly trained as educators. Being an expert at knowing limud Kodesh does not necessarily an educator make.

And the whole community, by and large, goes with the flow, and those good, smart kids are left out by us…and when the leave the rest of the way, chas veshalom, we scratch our heads and ask what their problem may be.

Their problem is us.

Hi write or wrong.

You bring up interesting components to this problem.

There can be numerous solutions or none at all.

The problems I mentioned, in my opinion, are deeply systemic. They dominate the outlook of the community, our yeshivas, the families, and youngsters themselves.

Attitudes are very difficult to change. Teachers, alone cannot control the curriculum or even totally influence that yeshivas have adequate resources to teach with.

The measuring stick we use to define who is smarter and more successful and even more Jewish, is solely dependent on a curriculum of learning which favor people who are heavily left brain hemisphere oriented (logical, sequential thinking).

And what about those who are more balanced or heavily right brain hemisphere oriented (spatial, intuitive, creative)? They are left out of opportunities to develop, or, at best, told such endeavors are shtuss. They are neglected, looked down upon, and discouraged.

There are no immediate answers. We have a lot on our plate now: loshon hora, internet, derech deviation issues, finances for yeshivas, a “shiddich crises”..etc.

We are a smart people. Our forebears were able to be frum and successful in a variety of endeavors when the outside society made it difficult for them to be Jews. Here, in America, we have freedom to look at our institutions and change them.

My only real solution that is workable is that I, as an individual, and teacher, can try to be encouraging and offer inspiration to hold them over until they are adults and can find the educational opportunities and support in career endeavors, as long as we dont lose them before they emotionally drop out.

Hi write or wrong.

BH, I do hear success stories from time to time when I run into former students. In some cases they say things they did, had to do, or learned in my class were instrumental. Not sure if they are just being kind, though. Funny thing, many of them do settle in once they get older, BH.

Still, they should enjoy their youth and never made to feel they are “one of those kids”, which I know that is how many feel simply because it’s difficult to succeed at logical, sequential performance objectives with no opportunity to be rewarded for their creative, spatial, and intuitive side. This also goes with limud kodesh, as well. A crude example is the specialness of Bezalel, who was not made to feel like “one of those kids”. It was quite the opposite. And this has nothing to do with IQ.

Yup. just let it go. but you may drop a hint that you suspect otherwise. and maybe he will keep in mind for next time that you will find out the truth so he won’t lie again.

They do settle..but its not always on the tracks you laid out for him,, sometimes they are more to the right and more to the left.

You cant imagine how many boys I know that became fanatically chassidish from litvishe homes and more moderate homes..or they became another type of chossid from their family..

anyway my son is settling a bit. with age they do mature and realize the non-sense but he is not as chassidish as my other boys and I wish he would daven before chatzos-never mind zman tfila.. then again I shouls say Baruch Hashem he davens!

He was having some issues that were bothering him and he discussed with me, so I told him maybe if he would take something upon himself for Hashem.. things would straighten out,, Hashem will take care of him. well he didnt tell me right away but he stopped listening to secular music.. the jewish music today is not thrilling either but as Rabbi Wallerstein said when a goy sings the song it penetrates into the yids neshama.. so I will be satisfied with this. Hopefully soon enough he will be ready to improve something else very soon..

So it DOES get better!

WOW-My mother always tells me ‘you keep talking- even if u think nobody hears you..’

So I keep talking. I dont criticize. I dont yell. Just state my opinions and beliefs and what I would like out of my children and family..

and they always say..ye..ye.. we know already.

Oh! so they heard. and eventually it penetrates.

I really do have a great relationship with him and he always trusted me cuz I never criticized what he did just listened..

I do say I don’t approve, and he has told me many a time that he did not ask me and that it was not an aveira, to which most of the time I agreed but,i told him, it was not ‘oisgehalten’.

or it’s not very yiddish- he was not interested in hearing that.

He keeps on telling me ‘this is me’ ‘and you have to accept me the way I am’ so I stop.

He is quite mature and sharp. I would say experience has shown him a lot- all that exposure. (its awful) He is not into learning obviously ,but he wants to be a ‘somebody’ so he has a goal first a GED and then he will decide how to continue.

I do think age and maturity- if they go together, I am not sure-

does play a factor.. I also think all the exposure robbed him of some childhood.

I cannot turn the clock back. We can only go forward..

I hope you can sort out all I have mentioned here..

Any questions ask. were able to get in touch with anyone?

Another thing that I do, so I dont seem like a threat but rather a friend in a certain sense- which I am with all my children- and they still respect me..

when he starts telling me things that are going on I speak his language.. not nivul peh.. and I seem interested in what he is telling me.

If I meet him with his friends I talk to them as well.. and act along with them.

This way I get information and keep it in ‘storage’.

even when I hear him speakng with friends on the phone I would comment something ‘corny’ or funny..

Like this he finds the friend in me and when I ask him a ‘favor’

like maybe he should daven or something like that he does not think to himself that I only talk to him to tell him what to do..

WOW-A gitte voch.. A besser voch!

I can certainly empathize with u. even though BARUCH HASHEM my son is a better now..

I dont know what you told your son..

I would have said somthing to the effect that he makes me cry.. and not well but really sad.

please call Rabbi Weingort from shalom Rav in Zfas and see if your son wont benefit… 050 200 9820.

He will be out of your sight and might come home a better person.

Your son is definitely troubled about something maybe ask him calmly what is troubling him and apologize if you have to about the confrontation or argument you had a night or two ago..

Its just you are so hurt..

Kids dont like when their moms cry..

tell him you are on his side and youwant to help him..

and he will answer you- if you want to help me just leave me alone!

and you will tell him as long as you are his mother you cannot leave him alone and you care about him and where he is going..

and leave it at that.

HATZLACHA RABBA!