Going off the Derech

WOW Suppose you had sent him to a “weaker” school instead. Do you expect he would now be thanking you? Or rather that he’d be much more resentful?

wow, I wrote a lengthy response to your last post, but the mods didn’t let it through.

I wish you much hatzlacha, and nachas from all of your children.

Daniela why is the reaction always to send someone away? I realize you only say for a few weeks (as opposed to the usual of sending to yeshiva in another city/country for a school year). This doesnt address the core issue NOR does it indicate to the child that you are willing to attack their needs head on and give the situation the attention it deserves. You are doing nothing but putting the same furniture that doesnt go well together in a room painted a different color. It still wont look good!!

This tactic really infuriates me. Does ANYONE think this is productive?

My suggestion is to accept the fact that not all people are religious. Live a happy life that isn’t bogged down with all the status and labels that controls the frum world. You CAN be a good person that is either a non-believer or just non practicing.

Life’s too short and we only go around once, theres no time to waste fighting about minutiae.

OhTeeDee:

I’m with you, ALL THE WAY!!!

WOW I will not argue with you about observance, but there is something that does not add up in your description of the story. You are presenting yourself as a long-time observant family that has been living in a chareidi neighbourhood and belongs to a tight-knit community. However you don’t have anyone to rely upon, but, most important, what I deduce from your words (which may very well be wrong, but possibly is the same things that other people deduce) is that your son is out of control, and that you will not agree to any suggestion which the RY and the community is likely to make, and which are likely, or should I say, certain, to be much tougher than order the child to stay at a relative for a few weeks and behave. As a result I am very afraid that ignoring the problem does not make it go away, all the contrary. What do you think might happen? Do you expect your good standing in the community – and your other children’s – might be affected? And what would you do if you were in their shoes?

I will only say one last thing. There are choices which we disagree with, such as smoking, which is unhealthy and causes terrible diseases. But I have many smokers among my friends. One thing is to smoke, another thing is to be unpleasant and light a cigarette in front of people who don’t like breathing poison, yet another is to smoke under the sign “no smoking” in the hospital, and yet another wholly new level is attempting to blame our own decision to smoke upon others and the stress they supposedly caused us, and attempting to manipulate them and belittling them in the eyes of third parties.

PS I find it outright scary that you are so upset about him becoming frei (in fact, even jeans are a big deal) and then you say “If my son were throwing out a jacket I bought him, I wouldn’t complain.” What sort of human being does that? To a parent no less, but even if it were to a friend? Is that the sort of middot he has? There is no Torah without middos, last time I checked. I understand his schoolmates and teachers told him something wrong or were unfair (I suppose your son is perfection and he never hurt any of them in the slightest? Or you think this is irrealistic?), but you failed to tell him there is no justification and there will be no sympathy for his current attitude, where he is “the victim” from whom everyone must beg forgiveness. First of all, there was no abuse of any sort. Second, he should have told his parents if anything bothered him a lot (so that they may get involved as best they see fit) and he should have put things into perspective (one does not broke friendships upon silly little things, a normal person cares for others and wants to see them happy, even if this requires giving in a little bit over irrelevant issues). Then, you yourself admit it’s not the school and he would be saying the same, or worse, had you enrolled him in a “B” school. And I have never seen you comment about the heartache your son is likely to have caused to his teachers, rabbis, RH, much less I heard a word of yours, asking advice about how to fix that.

Chag Sameach to all of you.

Daniela and evryone else..

I did not follow the entire thread but it is quite obvious that you do not have any experience with these kind of teenagers..

community and neighbors for some reason dont help they have suggestions that are not always realistic.. the teeenager has to want to go to talk to these people. they dont do ANYTHING that a parent tells them to thinking its some kind of trap to make him frum.

I hava a lot more to write bec I am going thru this myself ( and mine is gold next to other sons I am hearing about)

write or wrong- the only thing I can suggest right now bec its erev yom tov make sure he knows he has a listening ear. and u are ther for him. When he does speak listen and hear what he is saying. They say a lot of things between the lines that you will have to remember for the future..

Be happy your son tells you he wont be home.. mine just never came home.. not for the se’uda and not at night.. which was usually at 4am when he did come home..

when he is home treat him as natural as u do your other children.

A Freilichen Lichtigen Yom Tov!

Somehow this thread has degenerated to some people’s favorite pastime – bash the parents. I have not noticed one place where WOW mentioned that her son has issues with faith, yet those who have faith issues, assume that he does, too. I don’t think this is the case. He sounds like a normal teenager with a low level of emotional maturity.

WOW, if there is one thing you do, I really hope you would get parenting support. Hashem is the first partner in his creation. Do your hishtadlus, but more than that, trust Him – and may He answer your prayers soon.

OTD, life truly is too short. And sadly, I know many people with your mindset who have no zecher left of them in one generation. They couldn’t be bothered, married Reform, only son married a shiksa, and that’s the end of that. Whereas Aharon Hakohen has thousands of descendants who will honor us with their bracha of Shalom this Yom Tov, and every Torah Jew of any generation would recognize us as Jews by the fact that we cook meat separately from dairy. We have a mesorah. You may not like it or appreciate it, it may be mechayev to do so, but it is real.

Mom12, Amen! May all Yidden have a freilichen, lichtigen Yom Tov with the clarity we received as a nation at Matan Torah.

WOW A gitte voch. How was ur yom tov?

My son was not home but he was BH in a good place..I hope.

this time I beleive he was because he went with my other sons..

there was a time I had ‘family locater’ on his phone and I was checking where he was.. and he said he was somewhere else.

I couldnt even confront him..

When I call him he tells me he will be home in 10 min.. its more like 10 hrs..

I got up in the morning and found his bed still empty..

with all these ‘wonderful’ places open all night long I could only imagine the education he was getting..

there was/is nothing to do.. I just daven.. certain kapitlech t’hillim for 40 days.. then i said 2 prakim a day till I finished t’hillim ..I was told T’hillim and T’fillos are like a bank account you keep on putting in and the time comes and you cash in..

I came to a point where I told myself there is nothing more that I can do and I just gave up. basicly not caring where he is and not caring when he came home. I didnt ask him when and where.

but on top of all this I treat him as I do my other children give him what he needs..etc..

the hour is late. I will continue tomoro

I try to keep my posts short and they end up being quite long.

I had in mind to say to give him some private time. either out to eat – which u r right is always something they go for.

or a walk by the water..which I know my son would enjoy.

tachlis of this time is to just listen to him and see where he is really up to.. or whats hurting him..

for instance I am hearing about all the abuse he went through as a child in cheider.. and how no one listened or did anything for him..well, guess what he never told me anything at the time.

A lot of past is coming out..

He is now much better. He has been to other boys homes and sees his home is great next to theirs.. to the point that I’ve had some of them sleep by me cuz dey could not be home..

does your son have a job? mine BH does so he is somewhat busy..

its the nights that kill them.. they are not learners so there are no shiurim.. so where soes one apend extra time…???

I feel very bad for those that are going through this.

I do not know much about your situation, nor am I qualified to direct you.

However I will offer my observation of other situations similar to the ones you described.

I have read that you have a hard time accepting him for what he is.

Let me just tell you, that first and for most, never ever throw him out of your house, never make him feel like he is not wanted.

Do not try to ‘teach him a lesson’ as this will backfire.

Children (read ‘teens’) today, are not similar to the teen you were, they were brought up in a much different environment.

even if you cannot really bring your self to FULLY love and FULLY accept him, make believe and try to force your self to accept him.

Have private one on one talks with him, go walking with him (This might not be appropriate in your area, so take a small trip someplace else).

Dont be the one that talks about him. rather talk WITH him, make him feel accepted and wanted.

Believe me, those ‘friends’ dont REALLY care about him, nor are they interested in helping him with his issues (I am sure that are a lot).

You are his Mother, you should be the one that he relies on when he needs some Motherly love!

Also, make sure to validate him.

another point ( I am sure that a lot of people mentioned all of this, forgive me if you are reading this ‘advise’ for the thousandth time..)

is to make sure that you have his laundry prepared, neatly and his suites/pants/shirts ironed.

His Breakfast nice and fresh. his lunch nicely packed with a piece of cake wrapped. leaving a note wishing him a good apatite, goes a long way.

You might think that these ‘small’ things are in vain, however this will leave the message that “you have a mother, and she really care about you”.

What I really can do is hope and pray that he should stay our of any harm and you should be zoche to see lots of Nachas from him!

write or wrong: I’m just thinking back, and I remember what allowed me to give Judaism a chance again. I had all these ideas that my parents cared more for their status than for me. Sparing the details, it took until I realized that my parents would literally do anything for me, as a person, before I was willing to consider anything about their lifestyle. You say you try to make his favorite things. Keep it up! It was those actions which allowed me to open my eyes and consider being religious.

He will come around. Be natural and loving, just not too much that he sees through it as ‘just another kiruv tactic’ nor that his siblings be jealous. Just make sure he knows that it’s him you love and you want more than anything for him to be happy and he’ll come to realize (without you telling him) that Judaism leads to the most fulfilling life.

He is judging Judaism by the Jews. You need to show him how beautiful and essential Judaism is and how genuine you are about your commitment to the Mitzvot and to your fellow Jews (ie your son, regardless of his dress) and he’ll realize for himself the beauty of Judaism.

I apologize that I wrote this choppy; it’s late.

Hatzlocha

I think this needs repeating if I havent said it before

Its been said about another religion (and the blank is about the founder of that religion), but you can change the words

I Love ______ , its his followers I cant stand

WOW said:

He tries to stay away from the chevra during the week, but on Shabbos, he’s a different kid and he spends all his time with these street boys. He’s changing right before my eyes, and after every Shabbos, it’s a little bit worse. His language is terrible, and he is very chutzpadik to my husband. “

Here is what I see from what you wrote. The problem mainly lies with your husband. Your son loves and respects you, but maybe does not feel like he can accomplish. Seems like a self esteem issue.

BUT, with you husband, he has no respect. Why? It seems to me (just my conjecture from what you wrote) that your husband would demand from him to be a little angel, especially on Shabbat. This may have happened even years ago, but the hurt still lingers. I get the impression that your husband would demand of him to sit quietly in shul (on Shabbat), at the Shabbat table, etc. Something about Shabbat makes him want to get out. There is some bad history in his mind.

Furthermore, your son’s chutzpa towards your husband in only a reflection of what he has felt throughout the years. Maybe your husband reminds him of the yeshiva system that he feels abused him; maybe your husband was rather tough with him; maybe he told him to look good in front of others (which says ‘I care about my image with others more that I care about you, son’); maybe he saw your husband demand one thing and do another.

OTOH, he feels that you love him and will go out of your way for him because of your love for him. The biggest example of that is his willingness to go back to school to make you happy. He is reciprocating.

2scents – wonderful post. really insightful. one bewildering comment you made – in what world is it inappropriate for a mother to take a walk with their son?

msseeker – you seem very quick to make a korban out of one kid so that the others don’t get influenced. This post is not about the other kids (who are obviously important too). It is about the young man who needs his parents right now. screaming an emphatic “Yes!” and you wake up to an empty bedroom and another homeless teen hits the streets. really brilliant.

WoW – why are you so worried about secular movies? there are a million religious kids out there (of all religions) who have seen all kind of stuff. Seeing new things is part of maturing. Keeping him closeted to outside information is the exact reason for his current resentment. I promise. Besides, you can see worse in the NY Post on any street corner than an R rated movie. Instead of banning banning banning, why not actually allow it.Forbidden fruit always tastes sweeter. And maybe he will figure out right from wrong without you holding his hand.

Your son may or may not need to see a professional, one thing is for sure…in order to know how to parent in this situation, YOU DO!

mmseeker: “Your answer should have been an emphatic, “Yes!”. I feel terrible giving this painful advice but the situation in your home sounds spiritually dangerous. Please, please save your other kids before it’s too late ch”v.”

Really? It would ‘save’ the other kids? In all liklihood, being as he is the oldest sibling and therefore revered by the others, the younger ones would side with him and resent the parents for making that move.

The only way he will ever return is if he sees that a Torah life is worth living. Chasing him out will turn him off like nothing else can.

I am heartbroken.

I maintain what I said already, the boy is not rebellious. If he were rebellious he would shave, buy new clothings, and find himself a job and a girlfriend. We may dislike it, but (assuming halacha were to be violated) this is between him, himself and Hashem. This is not the case. The boy has expensive hobbies and no way to support them, and is not seeking for one.

W.O.W- Being a teenage boy myself, I would like to offer my perspective. Although my case is very different to that of your son’s, and it sounds to me as if our personalities and situations are very different, I don’t think offering my position will hurt.

I didn’t read the whole thread but from what I hear I get the impression you live in a chareidi community in Israel, completely different than my situation in US.

I grew up as part of a Lakewood Yeshivish type community, and actually excelled in the system. My Rebbeim throughout high school always told me I would go to the best Yeshivos, and encouraged me to keep up the good work. I was going to learn and learn and learn (you get the idea) for many many more years, throughout yeshiva and kolel, etc. I never would think of doing anything else. I was learning well until I lost respect for my rebbeim. Now let me explain, I was not a victim of verbal or physical abuse, but I did witness what I felt were very poor and immature decisions from some rebbeim. Until that point I basically listened to everything my rebbeim said, because I was a good kid. But after I was disappointed (much more than a few times) by my rebbeim and also by “yeshivish culture” in general, i decided to start making my own decisions and not follow anyone blindly. I realized that I did not want to just learn, that I enjoyed and wanted to pursue secular studies, and that I did not enjoy the “pressure” from the community to be “in the box” and that I was different than everyone else. (I actually think I realized all this before, but I just felt these feelings were wrong because my rebbeim felt otherwise, and I just pushed myself to try to forget these feelings.) My opinions did not agree with those of the Yeshivish world, and I was a bit devastated that my dreams were shattered and very much changed. Until I realized a Yesod Gadol, NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, AND NOT EVERYONE THINKS THE SAME!

To elaborate a bit more on this issue; we should all respect others feelings and opinions. (I am not accusing anyone here of not doing this.) Now while I understand why a religious person will not respect the opinions of an atheist, there is no reason for different sects of orthodox Judaism to belittle one another. Almost everyone has Mekoros and Rabbonim to back them up. (Even if not, if people are good people we should take them for who they are and appreciate they’re good.) For example, many of Rav Kook’s views were not agreed upon by most Chareidi Rabonim. But who has the right to say that if I agree with R’ Kook’s views then I am no good? R’ Shamshon Refoel Hirsh believed people should be educated, so who has the right to say that if I educate myself I am being mevatel zman, that I don’t appreciate Torah, that it’s all useless, etc.? And R’ Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik had very controversial views of his own, who has the right to say his followers aren’t bnei torah? While everyone has the right to believe what they believe, no one has the right to say the other person’s wrong.

When I finally arrived at this conclusion, I felt much better with myself and decided to stay on the derech. You must understand that when you grow up in a certain world, and all of a sudden you don’t fit in with that world, and to make matters worse they (including your friends) look down on you, it is very disheartening and you want to run away from the whole thing with a feeling of just leave me alone! When I understood that I had choices and that as long as I did what I felt was emes i would not be a bad person, I embraced the role of being frum happily.

I dont know if this is your son’s situation, but I do know people hate feeling like their bad, and if they do they want to run away from the whole situation, as an escape. When people feel like they’re fully respected with whatever they do they will act sensibly and make proper decisions.

One more thing: are there any role models that your son respects that he would speak to? I have role models ranging from not-jewish to totally frei to very modern to ultra yeshivish. Their common denominator is that they are all good people and have their head on straight. Observing and speaking to these people has really helped me clarify my views and goals of life.

W.O.W.

I don’t know how to say this nicely, but here goes. One other issue that you have to remember is that boys, starting from about 13, have a bit of “fire” in their blood.

He already feels that he doesn’t match up to other kids his age. On top of that he got these feelings that no one talks about (especially in frummer circles), so he thinks that either he may be the only one in yeshiva with them or just bad kids have those feelings.

I’m not sure about how to approach it. No teenager would want to talk about it with his mother. Subtlety is key.