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W.O.W. – whether you agree with the community standards or not is not really the issue. The issue is what message youre actually conveying to your son. If you keep giving the message that hes not living up to the standard set by the community, he’s only going to keep running away from the community, not join it. And he’ll view you as a pushover who cares more about reputation in the community than about him. Again, not saying that is how YOU feel, but it is how you will look to a teenagers eyes.
To use myself as an example again – when the kids in my school used to tell me i wasnt frum and other garbage, did it make me want to be more like them? No! I thought to myself “wow, these people are insane and just plain cruel. I will never be like them, and I will make sure my kids aren’t raised like that either”
You generally cant intimidate someone into being more like you (through threats of “standing out from the community” and such) and make them love and cherish it. Even if they do conform to the “standards”, it will be half-hearted and with a lot of deep-seated resentment. Like I’ve tried to say for my last few posts – the sooner you lose the attitude that he is not living up to community standards and stop conveying that message to him, the better off you all will be.
Perhaps, wow, your family, and your son, were chosen by Hashem to be among the vehicles of change in your community. Most agree that the behavior of rejecting and ostracizing members of the community who are different or struggling is wrong. You also seem to agree. However many of us say this is the reality and we would rather go along with it, knowing it is wrong, than be a protester and suffer the consequences. Maybe Hashem feels differently, and wants the wrong to be set right. And just maybe these kids who won’t go along with what they perceive as wrong, are Hashem’s agents of change.
And just maybe why are you attempting to be G-d’s mouthpiece ?
We do not get involved in such cheshbonos. We ask “what is He trying to tell me”, not “how is He using me in His masterplan” ?
There is nothing intrinsecally wrong with wearing jeans and blue shirts in a black-and-white community, in fact it may open the path to a more relaxed and accepting atmosphere, BUT, it takes A LOT of guts and enormous strength to do that, especially for a teenager. No doubt if he has been somehow bullied etc. with black-and-white clothing already, if he is seen around with jeans and a laptop is going to get much worse, with rebbeim and teachers and everything, the neighbours, etc etc. Who can withstand such pressure? Some can, but not many. Can this boy? I am not certain, in fact, I doubt.
He seems to be intending to “test the waters” but he will create much more trouble for himself, an amount of trouble I am not sure he has fully evaluated, to the point that (I don’t condone, but unfortunately, it is plausible reality) he might be pushed away, and possibly, worse than checking out a bunch of stupid things on the internet. We can only hope that, leaving him space, he will feel self-confident enough to build himself some outlet (and possibly wear jeans elsewhere, say at college?) while avoiding to stand out too much in your environment, and yet, defending how he stands out from the “average” or “norm” or “community standard” which people must feel he does because he has good reasons to. The third part, you in the family and everyone else who cares for him, should participate in doing. However, the first step for that, is for him to be convinced he does because he has good reasons to. I am not sure this is the case now, in fact he may at this time have the wrong reasons, and there, you and his father need to help.
WOW- I disagree about him never returning to black and white. You never know where life can lead him. However the reality is, and You may not want to hear this, but i highly doubt your son will ever want to be a part of your community based on the way you portray his being treated there. However thats not a bad thing. There are many many religious communities where he may fit in very well once he grows up. (which most likely will happen- theres no reason to belive hel be a lazy 16 year old his whole life). He doesnt need to learn to fit into the box, the box has to bend if it wants to fit around him.
Also if you dont mind me asking. do you live in israel or the united states or somewhere else because an OTD kid from israel is way different then the kids from america.
I agree with far east. Personally, im a single 23 yr old and i know i have no intention of living in a community of, and raising my children god willing in, a strict black and white community. That doesnt mean im not frum or dont want to be. I actually love being a frum jew. I try to follow halacha, be koveia ittim, etc…while also attempting to not judge others, be happy and enjoy the life god gave me. So too may it be with your son. He may never rejoin the black and white community. Things like alcohol, he’ll probably get over. I feel like there are two things going on here: the religious aspect and the regular teenage stuff. I gotta tell you, where i live there are plenty of white and black mesivta kids who ive heard cursing, and who drink and smoke. A lot of that is ”cool teenage stuff” that is unfortunately not isolated to the non- black and white community. That stuff, he’ll probably outgrow, as most of them do after driving their parents nuts for a bunch of years.. The negativity towards the black and white community, he may never outgrow. And I fully understand that it may break your heart at first, and i am sorry if that happens. However, the question is, how will you react if he raises a warm, frum family that is not black and white? Will you be resentful? Or will you accept them?
WOW- Truth is im not equipped to answer a question like that but ill try and give my opinion based on what ive seen. Israeli teens and american teens are a completely different breed. The american society is way more materialistic and shallow. As opposed to the israelis who tend to value other things such as nationalism and toughness. Kids that go off in israel are much more likely to get thrown out of their houses, or join a gang, and tend to fight a lot. Most of them end up in the army and once their in the army theres no way to know where theyll end up. Both in a good way and bad. But its a lot different then the americans. Americans usually wont be involved in gangs, but their likely to become very materialistic and lose sight of the bigger picture. However its common for them to end up either non-religious or modern orthodox (which is not a bad thing at all)
Also the charedi neighborhoods in israel seem to be a lot more intense and closed off then the ones in America. SO going off in israel can be worse in a sense that the community will look down on you much more for it, as opposed to america where its easy to move to another neighborood and fit right in.
Again, i just want to reiterate that this is all based on what ive seen and im no expert in the matter so take what i say with a grain of salt. But you should let the other posters know if your in israel or not because it will change the nature of the advice to fit your kid. I know ive been basing everything i said assuming your son was american and things i say may not apply in such a different culture
wow. I want to try to explain my last post as I think I wasn’t clear. My purpose in writing it was to offer another perspective, based on long-term hindsight, but if you don’t find it helpful, then please ignore it.
I’m not suggesting that you should do anything to make yourself a korban. If we take a step back and look at the larger picture, we see a community with strict standards and rejection of those who don’t keep the standards, and a boy who is challenging those standards. But the boy cannot just be cast out of the community, he is a Jew and we naturally want to draw him in therefore there is anguish, both by the parents and others affected by his challenge. And there is a conflict, because of those who love him and want to see him succeed, they will not just cast him out, but find themselves torn between their affiliation with the community that condemns and the boy they love and care about. Because of this conflict, a conversation starts, and questions are asked: is the community right or wrong? should the boy be defended? who is responsible? etc as you see this 300+ thread which is being read by who knows how many more Jews. And what brought about this conversation? A boy’s challenge to what he perceived as being wrong in the community. As we believe all events come through the yad Hashem, then it would seem that Hashem has chosen this boy (and others) and this family (and others) to be the catalyst for a conversation (one of many) that may bring change to an attitude that needs correction. Again, if this perspective is not useful, then just ignore it.
WOW, he does not want to continue in this yeshiva, and he is right – it is normal that a person who feels he cannot be successful, should wish to end that endeavor – but if you want your son healthy, I believe you must (calmly but firmly) insist on a game plan.
Since it does not appear that he is open to being mentored or getting counseling, have you considered choosing with him an out of town/country school? For a person who wants it, it can give him a fresh start. He will lose the intense influence that his crowd is giving him, it can open his eyes to different ways of being an ehrliche Yid, and it can give him the space to come to an understanding of his own relationship with Hashem and people.
Just to elaborate, the frum world does not have a monopoly on Judaism and as much as you may disagree, Judaism can be expressed in many many ways. Everyone has their preferences, sure, and lines that they WILL NOT cross, but this is the reality. Even within the frum world there are 20 varieties of hat, different psaks on ways of life. The idea of “my way or the highway” – many will choose the highway and not look back.
Re: sending away and removing him from his environment. For me, no rabbi or remotely located yeshiva can convince me of certain ideals that are critical to the frum world.
PS – I am your son, in 20 years – feel free to pick my brain, I may know how he is feeling.
OhTeeDee: so, you left 20 years ago? Now in your 30’s? Am I understanding correctly? If so, I see you still read YWN–are there other ways you stay connected to the frum world?
W-O-W,
The point is simply that a religious life is not for everyone. It works superbly for some people and brings much happiness to their lives and for others it simply does not work and they are happier living without it.
People as much as they are similar to each other are different from each other. The way of life that made you able to cope with the hardships of your life may make coping impossible for someone else-its just how it is.
If your son chooses a different way of life then you that is not a reason for you to beat yourself up or be upset at him.
Believe it or not there is not one way of life that works for everyone and by accepting this fact you will only gain his respect.
I find it fascinating how frum people who deal in Kiruv say this kind of thing to parents of Balei Tshuva all the time but when the situation is the reverse they have such a hard time realizing this.
W/O/W,I am seeing a lot of people here discussing the matter of going off the derech,but nobody seems to come with an idea that might actually work; we see all the old show your unconditional love,show the beauty of yiddishkeit,etc. I am not saying that they are not important,but let’s face it,have they had any results until now?
I want to suggest one thing that might be controversial,but I suggest it might be worth a try. I am by no means a professional therapist or psychologist,just a young adult who likes psychology. I suggest you buy your son a camera and give it to him to take photos. Why? You mentioned your son is a very private person and it’s hard to talk to him about his emotions,he is an introvert. Introvert usually express themselves very poor and by giving him a camera,you would encourage him to get creative and express himself. You mentioned he seems angry. Art is a beautiful way of expressing your emotions. There is actually art therapy. You might also buy him an inspiring photo book about something like landscape photography,that can inspire his emotions to be expressed. You don’t need to spend a lot of money on this,a decent camera can be found on B&H Photo and Video for like a hundred to two hundred dollars and for a book something around 20-30 dollars.
If you think that is too expensive,try something else that is art related,like painting,or a video camera for him to make his own movies. Just encourage him to get creative and express himself.
I don’t know how much more I have to say on the topic. All I can say right now is that Write or wrong- you came on here looking for help and answers and a way to understand your son. People are giving you that, and for the most part, you just seem to be resisting them all, and explaining YOURself and why what you are doing is perhaps correct, etc…You seem more interested in getting into these philosophical discussions about Judaism then in actually implementing some of the ideas mentioned here, and in the meantime is anything being accomplished? Again, I haven’t read all the posts, but for the last bunch of them, it seems like generally you respond to politely, thank them for their words and then proceed to disagree and mention why your thinking is different. Makes for great discussion, but what is actually being DONE?
W-O-W,
You said “I think you are misunderstanding why people are religious. It’s not like a ‘diet’ that works, or an outfit that fits, it’s a truth. Simple as that.”
That’s how you see it-and that is fine. However many would disagree
The VAST VAST majority of religious people do not even claim that the reason they are religious is because they objectively studied all the available evidence and came to the conclusion that a particular religion is the truth. (If everyone did this there would be only one universal set of beliefs that every religious person agrees is true…)
The overwhelming majority of people who are religious are religious because it fills a void in their life, or because they feel they cannot cope without it, or because they were brought up that way etc. etc.
I am not interested in having a debate here about if Judaisim or any other religion can be proven-this is not the place for that kind of conversation so please lets not go there
W-O-W You said, “I will just say that I don’t know a single person who is religious bc it fills a void in their life, or bc they cannot cope without it.”
I know many-but lets not debate this point, it is almost completely irrelevant. The main point was that “The VAST VAST majority of religious people do not even claim that the reason they are religious is because they objectively studied all the available evidence and came to the conclusion that a particular religion is the truth. (If everyone did this there would be only one universal set of beliefs that every religious person agrees is true…)”
I saw a nice story about Rb Wolbe z”l in the mishpacha some time ago. His son (wearing army uniform and not yeshivish) was davening minchah with him, someone (nastily) walked up to his son and said to him – do you think your father is happy with the way you turned out. His son was upset by this so walked up to Rb Wolbe after minchah and said ‘ Abba, are you happy with the way I turned out?’
Rb Wolbe didn’t answer. They walked home for 10 minutes and then Rb Wolbe turned round to his and said ‘Yes, I am happy with the way you turned out’. He asked why didn’t you say that before. Rb Wolbe said – if I had said that when you asked me you would have thought I was just saying yes.
What do you mean “you hope” he will agree to something next year? This is a point that should not even be questioned. This is not about clothing, this is not even about being observant and/or a believer. How can it be up to negotiations if he “would like” to be a productive adult? And even more important, why is he telling this to you? It is intrinsic to people to have a purpose in life, even drug addicts claim e.g. the drugs help with their “creativity” or whatever. What does he wish to achieve in life, where does he see himself 10, 20, 50 years from now? This in my opinion is the key, then all of you can start building around it. Yes of course people change, but we have to address his troubles right now.
Why someone is religious is irrelevant. If you are, it means you believe in G-d, and therefore you CANNOT accept that for others its ok not to be religious. If you believe “a religious life is not for everyone”, then you’re not religious.
This has nothing to do with proof – its simply not helpful to tell a religious person to view it as ok if their child does not want to be religious.
This also does not mean you cannot still show unconditional love for your child. But yes – you are religious, so you do not accept their choice.
exlakewooder: Don’t generalize. I feel very unfortunate for you that you met so many shallow individuals, but where I come from, we do what we do because it’s right. Heck it ain’t easy, but yes, I have done the research and I have become a full believer. And since I believe, I gotta do.
“The point is simply that a religious life is not for everyone. It works superbly for some people and brings much happiness to their lives and for others it simply does not work and they are happier living without it.”
True say! I was definitely quite happy living your way. But the happiness was transient. This happiness is not as invigorating, but it is more comfortable and fulfilling.
Just please don’t make up shtus that we follow the Torah blindly. Because that’s just not true.
w/o/w
Ive seen this statement around. The message is for a different religion, but you can make the change
I Love “Yeshua”, its his followers I cant stand
I think sometimes this might be forgotten, Maybe your son Loves Hashem, but there are some “followers” that he cant stand and make he equate one with the other
w/o/w: Go easy on yourself. What did you really do wrong by putting your son in this school? You didn’t know how it would turn out; if you knew in advance you wouldn’t have sent him there. You had his best interest in mind when you sent him there, no? It will be easier for him to come to forgive and heal if you are able to tell him you didn’t want or expect the outcome that happened there, and that you really regret that he suffered so much there, but that you put him there with love and responsibility for him, and only good intentions. You can’t erase the suffering he had; going forward the focus must be on healing.
If he was a victim of verbal bullying, he is probably very angry and hurt from this. I think it’s not good for him to hold it inside, sometimes there can be an explosion. If there is noone else he will speak to about what went on, then maybe you can broach the topic with him slowly and gently, let him know you agree that what happened was outrageous, and has nothing to do with his worth, that he is a valuable person. Maybe this can lead to a discussion of his strengths, and ultimately to a proactive direction for the near future.
If he is talking a bit now, there is a window of opportunity that wasn’t there before, and may not be there in the future. Take advantage, carefully, and keep the conversation going to help him unload some of this intense pain. Try to get past the crushing guilt in favor of the nurturing mode, this is what he needs.
It may be a positive thing, that he is going through the motions to keep you happy. He is telling you he feels distant from yiddishkeit from within, which do you think would be better–to embrace the secular world completely in which case he loses his family, or to go through the motions in order to keep the family for now. So when he tells you that, instead of mourning the emptiness inside him, you can be grateful that he is still holding on to family. The charade won’t go on forever, but we can daven that in the meantime he can heal a little and find a path back.
WOW i can definitely relate to going thru the motions. Be there and be supportive. Since its advent, religion has done nothing but create rifts among and within peoples. Dont let it break up your family
Your son has no right to disrespect you and his father, in addition to the obvious fact you did nothing wrong and tried your best to make him happy and build him a happy future.
Daniela “nothing wrong” is subjective and a moving target. I agree that WOW did all she knew to be right as almost everyone does for their children. In her son’s eyes she did do something wrong and his point of view is paramount now, which is why WOW feels so guilty about it.
I have friends who were in yeshiva for 8 hours before getting to secular studies (to cover those subjects in 90 minutes, mentally exhausted) – Many become barely literate adults. Are their parents doing something wrong?
WOW – I beg you to accept your son for what he is and for what he is not. In terms of guilt, this is a nature vs nurture debate. And since the nurture is usually identical, same parents, same yeshivos, even same rabbanim – yet we see all the time kids turn out way different – it is hard to argue that nature too has a certain roll.
w/o/w: I am familiar with the situation, but unfortunately do not know anyone who came back after leaving for reasons of verbal bullying. I am only offering my knowledge gained from being closely involved for a period of time, and because you seem to be looking for this type of help. I do not know what will be the right approach for your family, I am just offering suggestions you may not have heard before. I would certainly defer to any expert who has more knowledge than I on this particular subject.
Shabbos/Yom Tov is one of the hardest struggles. Are you able to maintain an atmosphere of rest and peace at all for the sake of the rest of the family? I think certain rules must be followed in “public” areas at home, but I don’t know if you can win the battle of what goes on behind his closed door. You might have to set out a list of the melachas that you do not want to see in your home on Shabbos, so that you can keep some semblance of Shabbos decorum. But it might be a losing battle to try to enforce shomer shabbos at all times in all places for him. The Shabbos/Yom Tov struggle makes the biggest case for living on their own, and yet, when they go out on their own, they may abandon any vestige of self-control with respect to Shabbos restrictions. Do you have a family Rav that you speak to about Shabbos?
After reading some more posts and seeing that vernbal bullying was a major cause for your son’s predicament- I can TOTALLY relate to him. 10 years ago when I was in elementary school, my classmates called me a bum, told me I was going off the derech, took my black hat and hid it, claiming that I wasn’t frum, so I didn’t need it. I would walk into a room and kids would yell out “oh the bum is here” The only crime I was guilty of? wearing bobby pins so I could better keep ON my yarmulka. I did have a tv in my house, but I didn’t talk about that so much. Kids can be vicious. The problem is that they get this stuff from the older siblings and adults around them. A kid isnt born saying that bobby pins mean youre not frum. They hear their parents say it and it becomes engrained in them. It’s really a shame.
I never went completely off, but I had my period in high school when I wanted to distance myself as much as possible from the people who had bothered me for so many prior years. I hung out with girls, went to movies, etc…( I never smoked or drank because I just felt that even from a non-religious standpoint, its damaging, which obviously, it is). Eventually I came back a little more to the right, though not entirely. Sometimes the best antidote is simply time. It is absolutely not true that your son may never come back. I know guys who were very modern orthodox who became very right wing. but nothing will happen overnight, and there probably isn’t much you can do either. I know there wasn’t much my parents did for me. Sometimes, simply the fact that youre a parent will cause the son to disregard what you say. His friend could probably say the exact same thing that he previously ignored from you, and he would listen. Hard as it may be, you really may have to just ride it out, obviously while still being loving and supportive.
For what its worth, no matter how much i didnt care about halacha, i would never (and still never do now) watch tv in my parents house on shabbos nor pull up in my car. I explain to my children now that we do not watch tv or play with muktza toys when we are there on shabbos. I am careful in my mother’s kitchen with kashrus (and when i go to sit with my father in shul, ironically talk than many of the ballah battim.)
There is a difference between being non-observant and being disrespectful (although you may feel like they are one and the same).
My point is, whether your son wants to be on or off the(your) derech, or somewhere in between (MO, bnei akiva, ncsy, conservadox, whatever) if he wants respect for his decision he should show respect for yours and your way of life.
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