Going off the Derech

Wow, that’s wonderful news! Keep us posted, we care.

Write or wrong: Don’t “interpret” anything. He’s living life as a teenager. Acknowledge that there will be days that you approve of and days that you don’t. The goal is to keep the “good” days to a maximum and make sure he actually enjoys and appreciates them-that way he will be much more inclined to stay on that path long-term. Accept that, for now, “bad” days will happen. Just be there and make sure the good days are as good as possible. At this point, what other choice do you have?

Rule out the presence of a mood disorder in general and bipolar disorder in particular. This illness is very common in Jews and from it is borne out the urge to rebel, self medicate with drugs/alchohol, and make poor judgement calls. If your child seems depressed, “ADHD”, has anxiety, or displays any other sort of mental issue they should be evaluated by a psychiatris who can and will diagnose bipolar in teenagers. A family history of mental illness is also very common.

w/o/w: I hear. You don’t have to fall into the trap of believing he doesn’t care. He is your son, you are his mother, it’s likely he will always care. His outward presentation may not show this, but often outward appearances betray true feelings. He probably not only cares about not hurting you, but also cares that you approve of him. I know, hard to believe right now.

Just a thought on the walk you took to check things out. Sometimes even if you suspect or know what he is doing, the impact of seeing him do it is very powerful and can evoke very strong emotional reaction. On the one hand, you don’t want to be naive or in the dark totally about what he is doing, on the other hand, knowing all the details can be devastating. Since there was a confrontation of sorts, it might be worthwhile to try to talk it out, trying to convey your intentions in the most positive way, that you object to the smoking because you care about his lungs and health, that you want to make sure his internet use doesn’t do long term damage that will be difficult to undo, etc….

Thanks for responding.

I wanted to clarify one thing I said which you may have misunderstood. I said borne out of bipolar is the need to rebel, not borne out of the need to rebel is bipolar. ie. Bipolar comes first.

In any event, I respect your position, but would ask you to keep my advice to you in the back of your mind in case matters dont unfold the way you would like. If you want to take this just a step further, perhaps get an easy to read book about the illness as it presents in teenagers and compare it to your sons behaviours. That might help you make a more informed decision instead of relying on half-truths, myths, and misguided thinking.

Thanks for listening. Best of luck.

BRAINFREEZE

Still,the goal of his acting out may be an expression of his own hurt, and not to hurt you. In any event, it is not constructive for you to react defensively, and assume he is trying to hurt you. You can certainly tell him calmly about how you have been hurt by his actions, but it’s not worthwhile to hold on to the shock, anger, resentment, etc. that comes with thinking his goal is specifically to hurt you. If it’s possible, try to get past that feeling and keep the nurturing perspective which you already seem to do so well. In the end, you may well need the nurturing in order to heal the relationship.

w/o/w: I don’t know if I can stress this enough: overlook the color of shirt. I know it’s a test for you, there may need to be a shifting alignment in that you may need to ignore the community dress standards for now in favor of avoiding machlokes in a very touchy situation. Some people say with children we must “pick our arguments” I think that holds true here. His clothing may deteriorate to something unrecognizable, undistinguishable from the non-religious Jews. But inside he is still your son, a precious neshama. Unfortunately those in the parsha a long time look back at the days of worrying about clothing, wishing that was still the biggest or only worry. Possibly you can casually mention to him something positive about why the men & boys wear white shirts, just as information without any pressure. It may help the other kids to have a discussion with them about why we have dress standards in our communities, take some time to prepare the discussion so it is conveyed as a very positive thing to keep the standard, while acknowledgeing that their brother has changed his way of dressing due to his confusion.

Write or wrong: Someone made a comment to me the other day. He told me how in certain places, OTD kids become a parody of what they are taught that OTD kids do. He told me he once had someone ask him, “How can you eat Chalav Stam but not do drugs?” By making every little point into a major sticking point, you reinforce the notion that just like a member of your community wouldn’t wear a colored shirt, so too they wouldn’t break Shabbos. Maybe you need him to realize that it’s possible to be a good, Frum, Halachah-observant Jew without meeting every stricture of your community. He clearly doesn’t want to be part of that community-at least, not right now. But maybe he will find a place where he is comfortable, and maybe that will involve wearing a colored shirt and keeping Shabbos. But when you make everything an equally major point, then Shabbos and Kashrus are much more likely to go out the window along with the white shirt than the white shirt staying together with Shabbos and Kashrus, etc.

write or wrong-

two possibilities:

1) he/she reaches the realization that he/she has hit rock bottom-wherever he/she draws that line

2) he realizes that there are other hashkafot which are equally acceptable. He is clearly unhappy living the life you have set for him (mostly because he has been burned). He needs to realize that he can define a new identity for himself within the conforms of halacha. Also, it would alleviate a lot of hurt if you could research for yourself where actual halacha ends and social standards (chumrot and the like) begin.

I am so happy that things seem to be picking up! Many teenagers change their dress as a rebellion against the notion that one’s value can be based on their external appearance. It is possible I am wrong but I would venture to say that you should not be making as big a deal when he makes steps in the positive direction, just as you should not make such a fuss each time he crosses the line. He needs to know that you love him just as much on his ‘better days’ as on the days that he knows he is doing what he should not.

In reply to :

“BRAINFREEZE- thanks for your input, however I don’t think my son is bipolar. My son’s feeling that his RY hates him is based on negative interactions that have taken place, and not on paranoia. I also don’t think that bipolar is “borne out of the urge to rebel”. From my uderstanding, it is due to a chemical imbalance, and that is why the only effective treatment is medication. That said, it is possible that my son may be struggling with feeling depressed at times. And I would be thrilled if he would consider talking to someone for a multiple of reasons. However, I don’t think the solution is a psychiatrist/medication.”

Medication is so toxic, that the side effects do the same thing as the problem we are trying to treat. I worked with people who were severely depressed and had OCD ,and after 10 years of being in and out of a hospital, and being on medication, I helped her get off meds, and got her to be a normal human being again that functions in society and can hold down a job.

I really feel sorry for so many people who are experiencing this problem. It can be corrected, and the cause in many of these kids are the same. I wont write the cause since my post will be removed. SOrry to see so many suffer. I hope one day more people will be open to listening to what I have to say ( and whoever does listen, is thankful for saving their children for many problems they would have had.) I guess it will take time , but until then, I have pain every time I hear these things.

Write or wrong: I havent nearly read through all the posts here, as there are a ton. However, speaking as a young guy in my early 20’s, who went through many ups and downs regarding religion, I can tell you just from your last post that you totally have the wrong attitude, as does you “community”. Its unbelievable to me how a parent could place so much emphasis on the clothing their child wears and how he will fit into the community. Believe me, your son absolutely realizes that. And when a child gets the feeling that a parent cares more about their outward appearance and how they fit into a community than their personal feelings, then that only pushes them further away. You absolutely sound like a fanatic from your last post, and frankly its no surprise to me that your son is going through what he is. What other restrictions have you and your community placed on him? is he not allowed to go to college? Is he conctantly told that the only way to be a good jew is to sit and and learn all day? And another thing- how was he treated in school by his classmates? When i was young, my entire grade called me a “bum” and told me that I was “going off the derech” What was my crime? wearing bobby pins in my yarmulka in order to KEEP IT ON!!!!!!!!!!! How infuriating it is that people will care more about what someone looks like than to notice the practical application of whatever they are doing. I can tell you right now, my very yeshivish elementary school had an extremely negative effect on me. There may be things that your son has not yet told you. eventually, many people do end up coming back, however YOU must change your entire mindset if you would like it to happen sooner, rather than later. STOP worrying about your sons externals and worry about HIM. See HIM. Care for HIM. Not for your reputation in your community.

Oh and another thing. This comes also from personal experience, as well as my college psychology classes. How do you and your husband get along at home? Do you fight a lot? I’m not expecting you to answer here, and its really none of MY business. However when a child see’s that the only things that come with religion are strife and conflict, they will a) HATE it and b) RUN from it. Please listen to me when I say this. It happened to me and I am letting you know the feelings that went through my mind. My parents did not have a good marriage. every shabbos meal was filled with fighting, sarcastic comments, arguments… I despised staying with them for shabbos. Perhaps without you even realizing it, your son is going through the same thing? Every psychology professor will tell you that probably the WORST thing for a child to see in terms of their healthy development is parental conflict. Again, I’m not implying you and your spouse have problems. I have no idea. but perhaps re-examine how your household is typically run.

P.S. I want to reiterate that I did NOT nearly read every post. If something I said is not applicable, just completely disregard it. I am only trying to help.

W/O/W/

I am going to tell you a story I heard

Someone once went to a Rav saying he HATED Shabbos, The Rov couldnt belive what he heard and then the man repeated I HATE SHABBOS.

The Rov asked the man he hated Shabbos and the man said, when I was young My parents spent all week preparing for Shabbos getting the best Fish, using the best dishes, Getting the best meat.

The Rov thought to himself, that sounds like a very nice Shabbos.

Then the man said, Every Shabbos my father would make me eat that Fish, I hated Fish. My father wouldnt let me eat anything else until I ate the Fish. I almost threw up every time I ate it.

Then the Rov understood, He associated Shabbos with the Fish that he hated. And told me you dont have to eat Fish on Shabbos.

I have been to peoples house where Chulent was FORCED on the kids (The Kids didnt want to be Fleshing) , ive been told “Ain Simcha elah Yayyin, Dag and Bassar”

There are lots of places to go with this, But first Clothes are NOT Important. As long as he isnt naked what is the Big Deal. If he wants to wear Jeans SO WHAT.

Where does it say that wearing Jeans is ASSUR?

It doesnt, of course. People make up Chumras and for some Chumras are good, but for other people Chumras are TERRIBLE and have the opposite effect instead of making people closer to Hashem it pushes them away.

You need to seperate Chumras from Halacha. Just like the Father in the Story made his son eat the Fish , The son didnt learn to like Fish which was the intention, The Son learned to hate Shabbos

W/O/W – You are correct that I do still have a lot of anger. That is true.

When I wrote restrictions, I meant what zahavasdad just said about chumras. I used college simply as an example of a something that yeshivish people will bash with absolutely no real logic behind it whatsoever.

You said “and a red shirt with jeans is not the acceptable ‘cover’ in our community.” Don’t you see? I simply can’t make it any clearer – it is an attitude like that that will turn off any teenage kid who isn’t a normal “yeshiva” kid. He doesn’t identify with the yeshivish kids and by you probably nagging and constantly telling him how thats an unacceptable cover, you are ONLY DRIVING HIM AWAY!! You simply MUST change you mindset. I hate bashing a whole community, but if that is the community you live in, youre probably in the wrong one or associating with the wrong people. I do get angry because in my opinion, kids are mostly innocent. they get the obnoxious attitude that “anyone who doesnt wear black and white isnt as good of a Jew” from adults like you, who just keep saying it without realizing the possible ramifications that it can have for kids who are slightly different.

Clearly, you “caring for him” by having this misguided attitude is not helping. Thats the same obnoxious attitude that missionaries have when they try to “save your soul”-“oh its for your own good”

Look, again, im trying to help. It truly does bother me when I see similar cases like I had that could be avoided. If youre just going to argue and defend your position which obviously does NOT seem to be working, then theres nothing anyone can do. I can only say that, bli ayin harah, I predict your son will not improve until you stop focusing on externals and communal reputations, and start focusing, truly, on him.

far east, very well said.

Write or wrong: If it comes to the point (if it’s not there already) where you need to choose between your son and your community, I think it should be obvious which one you have to choose.

Did any of you ever hear the saying “whatever i learned, i learned in kindergarten”. My profession takes me to schools, both boys and girls and what i sometimes see makes my blood boil. Kids as young as 8 being slapped for narishkeiten by a Rebbe, probably taking his frustrations out on the little kids and when inquiring you find out that his experience is ….yes….used to pack boxes in back of a factory!!! Most of these children who feel they had enough have a lot of built up emotions and were afraid of speaking up or even when they did were ignored because the parents may have been too busy for them (especially these days with such as what we are doing on CR or never taking a parenting course which they denied needed). Howabout letting small 2 1/2 year olds running around on their own in a big hall/lunchroom while Rebbe is eating breakfast. Yes, amigo is watching them while he is eating his treif food and getting the kosher school lunch ready and no he is not wearing gloves. So the falling in Yiddishkeit is not falling, it is part of the foundation he got when he started Yeshiva and the parents were ignorant to what really was happening.

See http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=127441 for one possible cause.