Going off the Derech

I am happy that you got support and encouragement from the coffee room. I remember when shabbos was very hard when my daughter lived at home. I wish you hatzlocha rabba, my tefillos are with you.

You are all so amazing. Thank you for sharing yourselves and giving so many of us chizuk and insight! Hashem should give us all koach and wisdom to raise our children (and selves?) in His ways.

Thanks write or wrong. For your son as well! Just met a friend at the grocery store and she told me she has TWO children off the derech. So sad.

Thanks, WT. I guess we guys will never understand you completely, but you did help me understand WHY I don’t understand. I wish you all the best. If you have anything else to share, I’m all ears.

Write or wrong,

You said there are answers to every question…I haven’t been able to get any answers to my questions! Hows about we sit down and see if you can give me answers?? maybe then I will find out the truth!

So start asking- lots of knowledgable people hang out here, and you have nothing to lose.

WanderingTeen and write or wrong- I grew up with the hashkafa of “mitoch shelo lishma ba lishma” and “adam nifal kefi peulotav”, that the more we do, the more it becomes a part of us. It took until three years ago, that I realized I had it backwards. The understanding of those two ma’amarim, are appropriate when a belief system is in place. I had been taught to do, do, do without having any appreciation for our heritage, that eventually with enough doing I would want to do. However, I have always been a deep thinker, and although I would ask all the questions, I never received answers that worked for me. W.O.W. you do what you do because deep down you do believe. At that point, however, I did not have a source of belief; I felt I had been fed lies and constrictions my entire life. I came to the point that I resented my entire childhood. I had been done with Judaism for a while and was going to try elsewhere when I decided to give the religion of my birth one last (truly openminded) chance.

Instead, and against everything I wanted to do (I, as well as many of my closest friends were not observant so it was going to cost me, besides that I didn’t care to believe it was true), I began to work from the bottom up. I began to work on my understanding of each individual mitzvah, and therefore on my love of God. It took time, but I began to realize how true and awesome our heritage is!

There are answers to any and every question, because the Torah is true! If an answer doesn’t suit you, ask again to someone else. If a person has a foundation of respect and belief in Judaism, everything will automatically follow. If not, the fact that we have to pay someday, is irrelevant because ‘who cares about a God whom I half believe in anyway.’

If the issue is a lack of answers, call Ohr Sameach, call Aish, call Neve Yerushalayim. And read those books by Rabbi Kellerman; extremely worthwhile reads. There are brilliant people who know how to give all the answers in a way that you realize how true it is.

For anyone reading, Gateways is online at asktherabbi.org.

*kapusta*

Can someone post a brief summary of Rabbi Keleman’s Permission books?

From reading through your posts it seems pretty clear that you are from israel (the word disk on key is one big clue as well as the use of the word hareidi and the fact that he is in shiur gimel but won’t continue to yeshiva gedola like the israeli system). I would asssume in a pretty insulated community like kiryat sefer or the like. The system in israel puts a huge amount of pressure on young kids; by the time they are 13 they are expected to sit and learn all day. Anyone who is not able or unwilling to put in the crazy hours and dedication is looked down upon.

I personally was in the exact situation described a few years back. I think I can offer advice based on personal experience. The first thing he needs is to be productive. Being unproductive just makes you depressed and just leaves you not caring about much least of all religion. Only once he feels good about himself will he be able to really think about what he wants in the future.

To that end, you need to get him to a next step , any step. Its very easy to stick with the status quo. I personally remained where I was and wasted a year and a half of my life. This can mean going to a more chilled yeshiva, going to work, or maybe working towards a bagrut. I can tell you personally that some of my happiest times in the past few years were times when I was working 2-3 jobs and barely had time to breathe.

Another great option you have is the army. Yes, it goes against your hashkafa (I’m assuming) but you have to look at it this way. Right now your son is hanging around with a bad crowd, the crowd in the army isn’t any worse. There is netzach yehuda which is filled with quality frum guys and even the regular army is very accommodating to frum people. The chareidi community has this false perception of the army perhaps because of the way it was back in the 50s and 60s. You have to realize it is not like that anymore (personal experience). The army offers full structure and really makes you into a better person. At this point in his life this may be just the thing for your son. I know many guys who were drifting and involved in the wrong things who completely turned their lives around after joining. (Just to be clear I’m referring to combat units as being a jobnik is even more depressing than sitting around at home and there are a lot of girl issues). One possible motivator would be to get in to a sayertet. If your son gets it in his head that he wants a sayeret. He will have something to strive for and that is extremely important in maintaining a healthy state of mind. He will have to start running and getting in shape to get ready for gibushim. Most importantly he will stay away from drugs (which are looking like a decent possibility at this point) so he won’t fail any army drug tests. This is something you have to sit down and discuss with your rav.

Sorry if all this came and sounding a little disjointed. This was written on the bus on my way home from base after a week in a crazy intense courseam I didn’t sleep properly in a while and I’m a little exhausted.

WOW- thats terrible. Its really a shame how the system is so messed up. Its built towards creating gedolim and rebbeim, and ignoring everyone else. The most important thing has become not your yiras shimayim or your heart, but how much blatt you can memorize. Sadly the majority of us who dont have the patience or drive to learn in depth gemora get messed over and ignored. The sad part is his R’Y prob assumes it was your son’s fault for not being a perfect little angel and not fitting his idea of what the right mold should be. It seems your son needs a new yeshiva where they dont make him feel worthless

First — wanted to say what a superb discussion of the OTD issue — so many smart, experienced, sensitive, informed contributors.

My own 2 cents — having done a couple of off the derech rounds myself:

1) One size doesn’t fit all — that’s true in any community, frum, frei, MO, secular etc. The biggest reason that the vast majority of Jews aren’t frum is that in free societies, there is no more compelling right then the one to define who you are and pull from the unprecedented range of options to “build your own” lifestyle that works for you. Its not about rejecting your parents, but the basic human instinct of exploring beyond the world we know.

Once you begin asking questions — “why can’t I even choose my own cloths? Why do I have to wear sticky wool pants when everyone else is in shorts? Why do i have to bike in a skirt? — suddenly you realize you are not the only one asking these questions and there are vast options available as you figure out who you are/want to be.

Today, the frum lifestyle competes in a vast marketplace of compelling, interesting choices — that’s just the way it is, and the frum world has to figure out how to be compelling in that new reality. Coercion and pressure doesn’t work.

2) Lying to our kids that OTD = drugs/crime/failure etc. that anything secular is schmutz is about the most counterproductive approach possible. Its self-evident that the world, beginning with our neighbors down the street, is filled with kind, generous, productive, successful, satisfied people regardless of how frum/not frum they are or whether Jewish/not Jewish. And there are vast repositories of complex, inspiring and challenging culture and creativity beyond traditional Jewish music and seforim. We have to find a way of being more subtle and clever — engaging the best of the broader culture rather then rejecting it all wholesale.

3) To MSseeker and others — if one is challenging Torah truth and Hashem’s existence, then “proofs” not only don’t work, they appear childish and simplistic. Take Nasseh V’Nishma — if you hold the view that many OTD folks take, that the Torah is an authored document written hundreds of years after the events described, then you hold these are words a later writer has put in the mouths of the characters at Sinai to validate the requirement of observance. All you are “proving” to an OTD person is that the Torah authors(s) had the skills of any good narrative fiction writer. The challenge is to find a way to validate and reconcile Torah in the broader context of the vast textual and archeological data we now have on the ancient world.

I hope this discussion keeps going — kudos to the coffee room for providing and hosting such an important and relevant forum.

Write or wrong. Oh my g-d. I know exactly what you mean and I unfortunately know too many roshei yeshiva and principals like that.

We are living in a world with priorities so wrong and all the wrong people at all the wrong positions.

I would write a very sharp letter to the r”y, and then PULL MY SON from that Yeshiva.

There are many small Yeshivos catering to your son’s needs. Many Yeshivahs that take each child as an individual, and work with them according to their needs. They have professional Mechanchim running the place.

It’s worth for you to begin exploring your options and placing your son where he really belongs, even if it isn’t considered a “top” Yeshiva.

Hatzlacha.

daniella- i dont think the problem is as simple as your making it. You pointed out how a few weeks ago WOW’s son had no interest in yeshiva and now he is interested in going. It seems that her son deep down does have the desire to be a respected bachur, however due to the constraints of the system he BELIEVES it to be impossible. The system aparently hurt his confidence which would fit in with him no being interested in doing anything with his life. More then ever i think your son needs to do something productive. Unless he gets some serious attention from the right rabbeim or role models, i think it will be difficult for him to be successful. There are many small yeshivas out there that are suited for boys like your son. He sounds like he would do perfect in a small yeshiva suited for boys who do college during the day or something along those lines

zahavasdad, please, tell us the list of places that are run by merit and that hire the best candidates. You may also want to double check with chiloni or nonjewish colleagues who know such institutions first-hand.

far east, I realize what you’re saying, but it does not help to self-inflict further suffering because we received an injustice. People have rebuilt their life from nameless horrors and you state that a bad experience, a hurtful experience, I’ll even say a destructive experience but let us put that in perspective, might G-d forbid hinder someone’s success in life? We all have had troubles of some sort or some others, and successful people did too. He will be successful in whatever endeavours he pursues, as long as he wants to. I am well aware the school wronged him and damaged him, but we are in no position to affect this. It does not help to disempower him further and to further insinuate doubts about himself, no matter how well-intentioned. If he feels capable, empowered and in control, then our self-image and self-confidence has no problem in deciding that a certain yeshiva is too demanding and trying to make the most of it as long as he’s stuck there, and then, apply elsewhere for the next year, without feeling like a failure, without thinking over and over with bitterness against the RY and others who wronged him; a person can be successful in life and can move on from a bad experience, and looking back, he’ll say the school was not suited to him, that’s all.

What some people fail to get is that no one goes off because they don’t believe, its because they don’t care. Even the guys who have all their arguments against being religious have some story that explains why they aren’t religious. No one throws out the way they were raised for intellectual reasons its all emotional. You get to the point where you believe in everything but don’t care enough to keep it.

I am religious now but went through my own battles. I really strengthened when I joined the army. the point I’m trying to make is that you got to get him into a better situation. Whether that means getting him to a yeshiva that doesn’t put crazy pressure on the students or getting him to get a job. The main point is productivity, without that its hard to care about anything.

Its very easy to try to stay in the same place I kept trying to make it work and wasted a lot of time. I personally am not quite sure where your son is in life; what you call a bad crowd can be just a group of disillusioned yeshiva guys who don’t do much wrong. On the other hand these guys can be doing serious stuff. You keep mentioning that you wish he would love his school. You have to get that idea out of your head. Stop living with what “should have been” and start dealing with the reality. Instead of dreaming that he will be the next gadol hador and start trying to get him to be a frum happy productive adult. The main thing is, get used to the idea that he may not be making it in this yeshiva or possibly in yeshiva in general and come with an alternative.

Daniella

Do you think Columbia or NYU hires professors based on Nepotism. Do you think teachers hired by YU or The New York City Public School system hire by Nepotism.

Now I am not saying nepotism never occurs in these places, of course it does, but the majority of hirees at these places are based solely on merit. If one or 2 slips though, its doesnt make much of a difference, but at many yeshivas almost the entire staff is somehow related to the R’Y

You would have much better rebbes if they were hired on merit than nepotism. Ones who could actually teach and cared about every boy, not just those who are the “best”

WOW–is there something he shows particular interest or talent in, or an inclination to know more about? Maybe it’s possible to use that as a starting point to find work as an apprentice or a part time job, in order to get him into a new environment with new people, where he is interacting differently than in yeshiva or with the chevra. If the tormenting in yeshiva was long in duration, or involved more than one other tormentor, or was particularly brutal, or twisted so that the victim seemed to be causing the problem, I’m guessing it will be very tough for him to ever feel good at that yeshiva, and maybe at any other yeshiva. But you have a chance since he agreed to finish there. I’m not sure if you mean he will finish until the end of this zman, or afterward as well. But eventually he will move on so maybe your focus needs to be on gently guiding him into what will come afterward. At 16 he probably cannot see that far, but you can, so he may be interested in listening to you if you begin with the things he is already interested in, or feels competent at.