Going off the Derech

Wow: I am sure you are heading in the right direction…. With Hashems help, its coming close…

as i said, all the best. remember hashem is with you always. you are NEVER alone.

Some people need to realize the difference between constructive critism and bashing.

Not all critism is bashing and everyone can take some Chizuk even Charedim.

This thread unfortunatly exposes flaws in the Charedi society and WOW is a victim of it.

Teens are rebellious. Its just part of growing up. It really isnt the end of the world . How to deal with such teens.

You have a sibling who is “OTD” and a yeshiva rejects him soley because he has an OTD Sibling. Please tell me where that is acceptable. There is a well known Gadol who had a sister who was a communist and when he about to enter the Yeshiva Gadola his sister did everything she could to discourage him from going and go to a university . And you know what the Yeshiva took him anyway and he became the Gadol HaDor.

Perhaps if the Charedi world would accept some critism (You can usually tell the difference between hateful talk and constructive critism and even hateful talk may have valid critism in it)

COTW first of all you are not posting with sensitivity towards WOW by pointing out. “likely possibilities” like that. It would be far more helpful to offer chizuk or advice within the framework of where WOW lives and the realities she lives with.

Secondly, I must take issue with what you wrote about the alleged ” ugly truth about Yiddishkeit” I am sorry that the representatives of Yiddishkeit who you have met and suffered because of have hurt you. I must clarify to you, however, that you have chosen to tar all of Yiddishkeit with the same bush based on your experiences. Wouldn’t I be considered racist and small minded if I decided that all people of a certain race were thugs because I got mugged by a group of youths from a particular race? I would be cheating myself of interacting with many wonderful people based upon negative experience with a small subsection of that group.

Before you disparage all of yiddishkeit, meet others who are more accepting of you and certainly don’t add to WOW’s pain. If you were hurt, you know how it feels. Was the best support you received really in the form of bashing those that hurt you?

imma and WOW – thanks for taking the words right out of my mouth. Well said!

write or wrong-

That was amazing. If more people had that approach, they’d be far happier.

I just wanted to add it would be much better if change came from within Charedi society. It seems that any critism is seen as being anti-Charedi instead of perhaps being constructive.

It is a shame people think any critism is a black mark on Charedi society.I do not think any less of charedim because there are R’Y who might be great talmid Chacham, are not really able to be teachers.

This thread has being going on for a year and it seems from an outsider that things did get somewhat worse over the year (Sometimes on a daily basis its harder to see change) . It would benefit charedi society much better if you would expose the flaws in the system so that others do not go through what you went through and try to make things better.

It would be much better for Charedi Society and yourself if people like yourself would gather together and try to make things better. It might hurt at first, Sort of like Chemo therapy which hurts at first but in the end you will get better

All neshams are important

What has happend is many are willing to throw some under the bus and unfortuantly this thread is about such people.

Because spaces are scarce, everyone wants the best and the rest get left behind

I am saying a system that is willing to cast off “excess” is flawed

If Space is scarce, make more space. There seems to be plenty of money for many other things that we can debate if its a chumra or halacha,

We are talking about future generations here. Whats more important. Debating about what kind of Haircut a Yeshiva Bocher should have or just plain chinuch

The MO community issue is the tuition is too high and people are taking their kids out of the schools because they cant afford it

I cant speak about Dati Leumi because I am not familiar with the issues, but I assume Tuition isnt an issue.

But ask any Gadol if a Yeshiva should not take someone because the parents arent as “frum” as you are

Many MO schools take Kids who are not Frum in the hopes of Making them frum . Some of them never become frum and some do become frum.

Charedi schools rarely take such kids so its not really fair to compare the 2 since the MO schools are taking a risk the charedi schools are not.

You arent going to make a non-frum kid unless you at least give it an effort

Write or wrong, when I refer to “best” and “worst”, I am referring to behavior, not academics. My concern is that the “better” kids not be negatively by the others. (I am not referring to your situation at all, this was a tangent).

I’m not sure why you think affirmative action is applicable to yeshivos, though. The assumption made by those who support affirmative action is, i believe, that certain ethnic groups were discriminated against, and a quota would give them a fair chance. In other words, they really could be on a par academically. I don’t think that’s the kind of discrimination we’re talking about.

A case could be made fore academic based segregation (not exclusion) as well, though. A classroom normally functions better when there’s not as much disparity. If the focus is on the stronger students, the weaker ones will be left out. If the focus is on the weaker students, the stronger ones will be under-stimulated. Teaching to both levels simultaneously is a feat which most educators are not capable of.

The question becomes (usually in what we call mesivta in the U.S.) whether to have different tracks in the same yeshiva, or more yeshivos. Some feel that it makes sense to have more yeshivos, without “tracking”, so that the weaker students don’t get labelled B students, which almost dooms them to academic failure. This effect is felt much stronger in schools with parallel classes on different levels; much less so between different yeshivos.

When I read here about the debates in Israel , Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task

And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.

So even those who are less learners should not be drafted.

Now when I bring up that Yeshivas are already throwing out the weaker students and many Behavior issues are related because not everyone can sit 12-14 hours a day (especially a Teen) and learn. They then become frustrated and act out and some of the acting maybe just be boredom. But because they are punished because they cant 12-14 hours (If the “Gadol A” learned 14 hours a day so can you) otherwise you are an “At-Risk Teen”

Those who are for the draft claim What if a guy is not a great learner and is “Goofing around” or not up to the task

And the response has been EVERYONES Torah is equal before hashem.

I think you made that up. The arguments have been, for the most part, against drafting those who are learning, no matter their LEVEL, not no matter their hasmada, and against a treife army which is no place for a nice Jewish boy to be.

DY : Just semantics

I think you missed the point however. When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way (We can debate what way is best) the charedi world gets all up in arms

However when there are lesser learners not under pressue for outside forces to do something else, Instead of trying to find them a place in the world the charedi world throws them under the bus

Just semantics

You framed the argument in a distorted way, using “just semantics”, to make the anti-draft position look silly.

When the government wants to take the lesser learners and help them in some way

They have no interest in helping anybody. If they want to help, let them work on the books. If you think Yair Lapid is trying to help chareidim, I’ve got several bridges and tunnels to show you at bargain prices.

Why is the root causes being ignored.

There us no single root cause. Each case is different. Trying to blame it on a system is a convenient way of getting out of the hard work of being mechanech individual children.

We have moved off the original topic and gone the regular root. But I will offer my opinion here anyway.

On the topic of the Israel draft…if you choose to live in Israel and know and understand that the citizens of Israel must protect themselves from their own neighbors and therefore every child that turns eighteen must enter the army and be trained to do so, then you must be prepared as all other citizens to do because you are protecting your own! And you are expecting your brothers whether they are chareidim or not to protect you! It is not like in America where kids were drafted to fight wars for other countries and nationalities. Each and every citizen of the Land of Israel shares the same risk and therefore must share the same training and service. A special leniency has been afforded to religious girls which I truly appreciate and admire; and for many years to religious yeshiva students. This has been a huge area of contention.

Yes learning Torah is also a measure of protecting Eretz Yisroel but there is no Age limit or constraints on learning. So while the Yeshiva boys who are serving their country during the few years that they are required to do so, other men outside that age barrier can and should be learning in their stead. In this way there are always trained chareidim in the midst of the community ready and prepared to keep there own communities safe! Once a soldier always a soldier. Armed, ready and prepared. With a sense of discipline, purpose and respect in all areas of their lives.

If you do not accept that responsibility as a citizen of the country you should move out and allow others who do to settle the land.

As far as the Yeshiva system is concerned….it needs to be completely overhauled. Kids are NOT being taught the basic Torah values which should be the foundation of their lives and their Torah learning. That should come first before all else. That is the A, B, C’s of Yiddishkeit and without it their learning is pointless. With it their learning is like Angel’s singing! Yes there should be parallel classes and strong students should be encouraged to help the weaker students. Weaker students who wish to achieve their potential will be able to work to move up into the other track. When you have separate schools you are stuck and labeled for life!

Hashem gives each of us different skills and talents. One kid might be an ilui in Gemarah while another shines in Mishnayos, Chumash or Nach. That means that the possibilities are here. A kid might not chap the Gemarah but he could be a Math savant. Why does he belong in a different school? He just needs the encouragement to train his brain to tune in to this other exciting and intricate concept. He needs to be motivated differently. Sometimes it is the lack of motivation and encouragement from the yeshivas themselves that turn off the kids and not the abilities of the kids at all!

Children need positive energy to meet their goals and to push themselves past the stop signs. If a child needs a pat on the head I don’t want to hear that the yeshiva doesn’t have the time to supply it. For the tens of thousands of dollars parents spend on a child’s tuition make the time to give he kids what they need and don’t put them on the bottom of the totem pole. Schools are supposed to be designed to help kids meet their individual potentials. Schools are supposed to be designed to help kids succeed. Schools are supposed to be about the kids! Our yeshiva system is NOT about the kids at all. It is a place for the Rosh Yeshiva and the Rabbanim to make a living. And please notice that I use the word make and not earn. It is about what the administration needs, what the staff needs, what the school needs, what the wealthy parents want, what the donors want, how to outdo and out frum the other yeshivas. How can WE stand out and be more exclusive? It has nothing to do with the kids and heir welfare. Any regular normal parent with a regular normal kid who has a problem or issue will be shown the door and told to look elsewhere. They don’t care if they lose normal students. They are all just looking for wealth and Yichus. Is this what Yiddishkeit is about? This is what our yeshivas are teaching our children Yiddishkeit is about. This is the hypocrisy our children see. They do nothing to make their students safe, happy or successful.

I have tried in vain many times to get kids into yeshivas who were so willing to change just to get back not school. They were brushed off like flies only to go down the very dark journey of OTD. Those principals have no clue what achrius they are carrying and they won’t know till after 120 when Hashem points everything out to them. What a difference they could have made in these kids lives. They were so open and ready, so ripe for the picking. Why did they choose to be so very blind? Because their egos have grown too large for their positions. They need to take lessons of the previous gedolei hador, z”tl. They should try to remember who the true Roshei Yeshivas were and how they handled their Talmudic!