Going off the Derech

How on G-d’s green earth is anyone supposed to follow a thread of 1,805 posts?

WOW – I heard something I’d like to share.

We say in the Haggadah ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? – a complicated, far reaching, scary task to attempt in today’s times. Tools of the trade have somewhat changed, what may have worked in the past now give different results.

I heard in the name of some Gadol – “bang out his teeth” means to take away his bite. Soften him up – try to take away his bitterness. ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? – long ago it was each for his own, he wouldn’t have been let out. Nowadays however we’re all in it together – we’ll stick it out – together.

Write or Wrong, on yom tov I had a chance to look at our local Jewish paper and I was reading about the young couple who were killed in a terrible car accident after Purim. A sweet young couple who were expecting their oldest son (he also nebach didn’t make it). How terrible their parents must have felt this Pesach sedar not to have the young couple with them, knowing that they will never be with them in this world.

My child was not with us for the sedarim. Am I happy about it? No, but I know that he/she is well and I do get a visit now and then.

Write or wrong, I know your heart is breaking but you must work on yourself to keep things in perspective and be there for your husband and other children and show your son who is OTD that you will always love him and he is always welcome in your home.

OK, WOW, lets review your options.

You can choose to NOT worry what others think and not be embarrassed by your son.

You can choose to teach your other children that he is going through his own nisyonos and that they should daven for him because he is NOT davening for himself, and the worst thing in the world is to lose your emunah and bitachon, because when you lose that you feel like a lost soul just like their brother who has no direction, who feels like he has no place in this world, who feels unloved no matter how much we all love him. Do you know why? Because he doesn’t feel he deserves to be loved. He knows what he is doing is wrong and therefore he doesn’t feel he deserves to be loved. His neshoma is sick, and therefor we have to daven that he has a refuah sheleimah.

What are your other options? Can you stop being his mother? Can you turn your back on him? Can you slam the door in his face? No I don’t think so. But you can stop arguing with him. You can choose to let go of the rope and let him go. Sometimes when you give them the freedom they think they want, they realize they never wanted it in the first place, they just don’t want the tug of war.

So honestly who cares if he is mechalel Shabbos in front of your friends? Seriously, who cares? He is still your son no matter what? Think for a minute, if it was there son who was mechalel Shabbos in front of you, how would you feel? Would that make them less in your eyes? Or would you choose to say “B”H, at least you know where he is, and you can see with your own two eyes that he is alive and well.”

So the next time he is mechalel Shabbos in front of you and your friends why don’t you try it “B”H, at least I know where he is and I can see with my own two eyes that he is alive and well. The only other thing I can do is daven. Maybe you can daven for him too.”

in this coffee room, you won’t get censored for a lack of wisdom, but you will for a lack of civility. warning.

WOW, We are first human beings. What he is doing is NORMAL for a human being. What he is doing is NORMAL for his age and what he is doing is NORMAL for a kid going through his nisayon.

This is really something you need to let go of. YOU are probably making a bigger deal of this than your other children are. WE frum people separate our children from the time they are young because we don’t want them to mingle. WE don’t want them to get involved too early and let nature take its course. WE wait till they are marriageable age and then encourage them to date for the purpose of marriage. That is what WE do. But that is OUR NORMAL because we choose it to be. We choose to follow OUR rules for OUR reasons.

YOUR son is not following ANY of OUR rules. It is foolish to expect him to follow this one. It is foolish to expect that your other children will NOT find out about this or that they have NOT seen other children who are OTD, modern or secular in mixed company. They are NOT living in a bubble. The best you can do for your family and your sanity and that of your husband is to understand what your son is going through and where his path is leading him and to explain it to the rest of the family. You need to explain it in such a way that they understand the pain you are going through and that you need their help to daven for their brother. To have him in mind when they daven, say Tehillim and even make brochos. Because it is only through the tefillos of others that and even the extra mitzvos of those who love him that will bring him home.

Answer their questions and also say that you are NOT angry at him because he is still your son, but you are very, very hurt. You are very hurt because he is your son and when he is in pain you are in pain, and you are very hurt because every time he performs an aveirah it hurts you deeply as his mother. As a parent you want only the best for your children, and that is why you are mechanech them the way you are. You are teaching them that Hashem loves them. You are teaching them the love of Torah and mitzvos. You are teaching them the love of Yiddishkeit and to live a healthy life filled with joy and simcha. What he is doing is not healthy and is harmful and you are frightened for his safety and welfare. The mitzva of Kibud Av v’Em is a huge one. The fact that he has forgotten that just shows how sick his neshoma is right now.

Write or Wrong, I am so sorry that it is so hard for you. 🙁 Holidays are hard when you have a kid who is OTD that is making life miserable for everyone else. Hoping that once he goes back to school you will have some relief.

So what are your options? And what are your son’s plans (if he shares those with you?)

I also feel bad for your other children especially those who share a room with him. I hope things will get better very soon.

Maybe your family could go away for a shabbos and he could go to one of his friends that shabbos. It might be good for all of you!

WOW

I dont know your financial situation, but can you send him on some sort of trip for teens, they take most of the summer and they go to exciting places.

It might not be the Hashgafa you are used to, but they are religious and he will be somewhat watched

That’s exactly like we used to feel, write or wrong. Almost like we didn’t have a home any more.

Maybe he will want to make plans for himself this summer, he is certainly not happy at home.

WOW, I believe in unconditional love. I also believe in accountability and responsibility. I don’t believe in rewarding bad behavior or supplying things to children that we don’t approve of especially if they haven’t earned the privilege.

I don’t know much about TP, Avi and I do things differently and we have had successes with our clients by following different methods. So if you are following TP and you run into a snag don’t give up and don’t dispair. Call Avi and discuss the issues you are having. You are NOT the first parents to run into these snags. He has loads of experience with all sorts of these snags and he is the one you should go to for help instead of internalizing the pain and just suffering and making yourselves miserable. Let him help you through this and learn from the experiences of his other clients. The issues that you are experiencing is very common in so many families and he has guided so many families through what you are going through. Let him help you and your family through the latest bump in the road.

I can give you chizuk and I can guide you through the methods that I know, but since you have given him these things, as you said the cigarettes, the earrings, the bracelet, etc. you are following a method I have no experience with. It is beyond my scope. In my methods he would have had to “earn” those things by showing respect, by doing chores, etc. so I am not familiar what the consequence would be for the shouting match, or if there are consequences.

As far as the other children are concerned, I have mentioned this before and I have guided clients through this before. It is important to have family meetings and talk to the siblings and let them talk to you and discuss their questions and concerns. He is their sibling and there has to be concern for him. That doesn’t mean that they have to accept what he does, absolutely not. They just have to accept him. “Dovid, I love you because you are my brother and you always will be. But I am not happy about what you are doing or the life you have chosen. It breaks my heart and I just can’t accept that. I am sorry you chose that for yourself, I really am, but it is your choice and I can’t do anything about that right now but love you and daven for you.”

You need to explain to your children that you and your husband are the role models in the family. That you work hard to be good parents, good role models and most of all good Jews. You need to explain WHY Yiddishkeit, Hashem, Torah and Mitzvos are important to YOU. YOU need to explain WHY you are raising them b’derech Hatorah. YOU need to explain to them why being a Jew is a privilege and why serving Hashem is a privilege. If they understand why it is an honor to be a Jew, and to be a Frum Jew who reveres Hashem, who enjoys doing mitzvos and serving Hashem, then you are raising children who are secure in their Yiddishkeit no matter what happens to them outside of your home. If being Jewish and serving Hashem b’Simcha is the core of your home and essence of your being, then nothing your OTD son does, and nothing that any of their friends, teachers, Rebbeim or anyone else says or does will have a negative effect on them.

If the only reason they do what they do is because you do it, or because you tell them to, then it is NOT your OTD son that will tip the scales on them, anyone can influence them for the good or the bad. So don’t worry so much about what he is doing, think about what YOU need to do because there might be another bully or hypocrite out there that will have a worse effect on one of them and hurt them or turn them around just like that one bully and that Rosh Yeshiva did to your oldest. Infuse your home with the Joy of Yiddishkeit, make simcha your goal. Doing mitzvos is a privilege. Serving Hashem is a privilege. WE are the chosen people. WE are special. WE greet others B’sever Panim Yafot. WE don’t show our tzoros on our countenance. We forgive easily, we give over our worries to Hashem.

Are you getting my message?

WOW, I don’t buy that! I am a Life Coach and that doesn’t make any sense to me. In order to build one’s self esteem and self-confidence they need to be productive and feel part of a group. The reason he is NOT feeling loved is because he is NOT a contributing member of the group. HE is NOT being productive, not expected to be and is NOT doing anything for anyone else that would make him feel good about himself. When one gives to another it makes them feel good. When one is productive it makes them feel good about themselves. Your son’s mitzva bank is empty!

When you earn something it is worth having. When it is given to you so you don’t cry, it is worthless, you can get more where that came from, you just have to cry some more. If you are NOT working with Avi and blindly following some of the TP program, you are going to find yourself lost.

If your son wants things from you that you do not approve of I would tell him “Look I know this is what you want, but it is NOT easy for me to do that for you. What are you willing to do to earn that? You are an adult, and you want to make your own choices. You are now living in the real adult world where things are NOT handed to you, on the contrary you have to work for what you want. There is a lot one can do to contribute to a family and help out in order to gain privileges that are out of the box, or there is always the option of getting a job.”

What you have created here is a situation where your son “rules” or “roars”. He wanted to make his own choices. OK. Who said that YOU have to pay for his choices?

In addition, unconditional love is just that unconditional love. “I love you no matter what. I don’t have to like you right now, or like what you are doing, after all I am also a human being with feelings and emotions, but my love for you is unwavering.”

WOW understand this. YOUR sons friends did NOT approve of his white shirt, his kippah, etc. HE changed to be just like them, act like them, and do what they were doing. They did NOT accept him for WHO HE WAS until he turned in to one of them. GET IT? WE love them period. We don’t have to accept their choices, just their right to make their choices. “No matter what choice you make, I still love you. I might not approve of your choice. I might feel your choices are inappropriate, foolish, stupid and risky at times, but that doesn’t change how I feel about you. You are in control of your choices and it is YOU not I who will have to deal with the consequences of your choices. I worry about that because I am your mother and I love you. I also understand that you have NOT reached your full level of maturity and wisdom even though you believe you are very smart and very mature. There will be a time not too long from now when you will look back at this time and you might not be so proud of the choices you are currently making. It might help if you would speak to twenty somethings who have been through what you are going through and have grown out of it. They are the only ones who can explain to you what they wish they should have or could have done differently when they were in your shoes.”

The more control he has over you the more he will be in your face to test you. He might very well be begging for boundaries. Some kids equate boundaries with “love”. “If they loved me they wouldn’t let me do this.” So you have to know your kid. “Listen, you can raise your voice and make a fuss, that is not going to get you what you claim you want. You sound like a two year old. If you want to rant and rave and have a tantrum that’s your choice. I have choices to and I choose not to listen so I am leaving this room. When you choose to act as a respectful adult, you can come and find me.” “I choose not to engage in a shouting match with you, this conversation is over. When you choose to have mutually respectful conversation come find me”.

You said in an earlier post that you were going to look into your options. So lets revisit something I had asked you before. Is there a way to move the kids around and give him the smallest room, to separate him from the other kids? Discuss this with the other kids. Even if it means putting a bunk bed in his current room and doubling up other kids. I am just saying this as a means to help the siblings out. This is something you should speak to the entire family about and see if you can all come up with a mutually agreed upon solution. This way he always has a bed to come home to, but he doesn’t have the same opportunity to bother his siblings nor control them. This is a way for you to start taking some control back of the situation. You won’t have to be afraid of his music, his magazines, etc. His room should be off-limits to the other kids, and you will know that the rest of the house is kosher by your standards. I am saying this because you have the right to run your home the way you choose to run it.

I was going to wait and see what others much smarter than me reply, but I do want to add that we have heard many times throughout this thread of the issues with the father. You must understand no two people are alike, and we may very often hear that both parents need to be on the same page. That is not always possible especially when there is difficulties at home, as with this case.A mother has a different “gefil” to her children then a father and vice versa. I am sure that WOW is doing whatever she can and more to bring her husband on the same page as her! You cant pass any judgement on him or her , they are going through enough without it……

Io3, I agree it is also a good idea to get into the habit of not feeling forced into agreeing to anything but getting into the habit of saying “I will give that some thought and get back to you” because sometimes when feeling pressured we can agree to things that we would not ordinarily agree to but then feel that if we negate we cause more harm than good. So by not saying yes or no, but actually saying you will think about it and then get back to them about it and not just forgetting about it, you actually maintain control over the situation. You also get the time and space to choose your battles wisely and not just because you are giving in to pressure and shouting.

So if you are pressured for something that you don’t want to do, and you have the time to think about it, you might come back with “I gave it some thought and I don’t feel comfortable just getting that for you because you know how I feel about that, but I don’t have a problem respecting you enough to allow you to earn the privilege to get that for yourself, so what do you think you could do to earn that?”

In that way you are showing him that you respect him enough to allow him to make his own choice, and that you feel he is responsible enough to earn a privilege. But that since you love HIM and not his choices, you will allow him to earn that privilege for himself. So if he can earn that privilege, it definitely shows love and acceptance of HIM, without negating his right to make choices for himself even if you don’t approve of them. It also will build his self-esteem and confidence because it allows him to be productive.

WOW, I get that he was damaged by the bullies and the Rosh Yeshiva who did nothing about it. I got that and I understand his pain. But you can’t keep saying your son can’t pick himself up. He has picked himself up and done things he would never have dreamed he could possibly do, however they are NOT beneficial to him nor are they wise choices, but he has picked himself up and done them. He has picked himself up and stood up to you and his father. He has gone against everyone who loves him and believes in him because he chooses to do so.

Yes out of pain but it is still a choice whether he wants to blame everyone, ALL frum Jews and all the beliefs and the Torah that tie us together or whether he wishes to believe that each one is a human being making his own choices between good and bad, and that each one of us has bechira and has the ability to make mistakes, and sometimes the mistakes we make effect others big time. He also has the ability to take some responsibility on himself because YOU did provide him with the option to back him up and switch schools but he chose against that. So who is he really angry at himself or everyone else?

Is he doing all this to punish himself for NOT standing up for himself, not with the bullies and NOT with the Rosh Yeshiva and NOT allowing you to help him by taking you up on your offer to go to another school. Is all this a sense of masochism where he is gaining some kind of sick pleasure from torturing himself? Why am I saying these things? Because you are too close to the situation to take an objective look at it. You are the mother, no matter what is said or brought to your attention, your first instinct is to protect your son and make excuses for him.

When you say “He doesn’t ‘give’ anything to anyone right now, and if that’s what has to happen for him to develop self esteem, then we’re in trouble” then you really need to recognize that you are truly in trouble because YES that is what he really needs to develop self-esteem. Beating himself up as he is doing and looking for steps to enter further into this dark journey is not going to get him the self-esteem or self-confidence he needs. Those are not the building blocks he needs to find success and worthiness. He will only keep finding failure and worthlessness.

How do you expect him to heal his inner pain and find his inner strengths if no one believes he has any? How do you expect him to heal if no one is guiding him to the right healing methods? Believe it or not he IS in a slump and he does need a push. There are people even kids who are much worse off than he is. There are kids not much older than he who has limbs blown off by Arab terrorists. Maybe you should get him to go visit some of those people who have more to cry about than he does. Or kids who were molested by their own family members, or kids who were beaten or starved by the ones who should have cared about them the most?

Yes he his hurting and yes he is scarred but he still can be a productive member of society and he still has a lot to give others less fortunate than he is, and he still can do things that others can’t. And that doesn’t take away from the pain he carries or the right he has to feel that pain. He was wounded and Hashem will make those that hurt him answer for their sins. But every single day that he relives that pain by causing himself more pain and more depression, he is allowing them to beat him again, and again, and again. Every day that he breaks free of their painful control over his thoughts and feelings, is a day that he succeeds against their evil and cruelty. But every day that he suffers and goes off further and further into the darkness of this journey he proves them right about him. If they would see him today they would point their fingers at him and laugh. They would say “you see, we were right, you are a nobody”. On the other hand, as he proves them wrong, and takes control of his life in a good productive manner, he can look down upon them and say “you are like ants beneath my feet because you tried to prevent me from meeting my own potential, but you did NOT succeed. I succeeded in life “despite” your attempts to cut me down!”

Everyone who walks through the life of a child has an achrius to him. They can either make him or break him. They can either build him up or cut him off by the knees. That is our bechira, that is our choice. What choice does the child have? Well as a young child the only choice they have is to come to their parents. As they get older, the choice they have is whether to allow what happened to them defeat them or strengthen them. As parents and others who care about our children, it is our job to help strengthen them and show them that by making the appropriate choices they will defeat those who tried to cut them down. Success is the best revenge.

I don’t say this to you c”v to be harsh to you. I say this to you because I feel your pain deeply, internally, and I wish I could take it away, or at least help you. But if you don’t stay strong for your son and not allow him to suck you into his control and his pity, you will NOT be able to help him at all. You have to remain more clear and more level headed. You can’t be pulled into this stinking thinking or sinking thinking because it won’t help him. You are giving up on him to easily and you are giving him an out too easily. Expect a little more of him and maybe he will meet the challenge. But don’t expect too much too soon. Ease into it with baby steps. If he is 16, expect of him what a 16 year old is capable of. Don’t make a woos or a sissy out of him. If someone has a cut don’t treat him like he has a broken leg.

You have to remove religion from the picture, we all recognize that. But who said you have to remove mentchlichkeit or respect from the picture? Which post did I miss that you abdicated your thrown to your son? And as I said before, if you are going to follow TP, then work it as it is supposed to be done. Speak to Avi’ and follow the guidelines. But don’t just let the chips fall where they may because you might just be mixing parts from different puzzles, confusing yourselves and your son and not get the results you are looking for.

WOW, again I am not saying any of this to sound harsh. Your son has a neshama that is very ill. It keeps him from doing anything good and healthy according to the Torah. Other things are Normal for kids in his age group, not all kids, but many kids. Had he been in a secular school he would still be doing many of the things he is doing, but still be in school. Of course if he had been bullied in school, he might have dropped out as well. But the fact that there is a religious aspect to it makes it all the more painful and hurtful.

You are NOT seeing what I am seeing. He is NOT rebelling against his parents because his neshoma is ill. He is rebelling against his parents because he is angry and he refuses to discuss with you what exactly he is angry about! Is he angry that you gave him a choice about switching schools? Does he blame you that you did NOT make the choice for him? Does he blame you for putting him in that Religious school to begin with? Is he angry at you for something unreasonable that his new friends planted in his head because they wish to put a wedge between you and him?

Where is all this anger coming from? Is he angry at you because his friends are angry at their parents? Is that the trend he needs to follow in order to be in their group? Maybe some of those kids have a very good reason to be angry at their parents. Maybe they are the ones that caused their pain. What does that have to do with you and your relationship with your son? Do you fall into that category by default? YOU DON’T KNOW and he won’t tell you, why is that? Is there a real reason for him to be angry at you or is it part of the code of the cult? Did he take on this persona because that is the way to be accepted by his friends? Little girls ALL love Hello Kitty and American Girl dolls even if they don’t because EVERYONE just loves them, don’t they? They would never be accepted if they didn’t.

I don’t know your son, you do. But how well do you know him right now? You only know your son’s history. You only know what went on in the past between the two of you. Is there any reason for him to be angry at you? Is there any reason for him to even perceive a basis to be angry at you? If not, then you have to look at another theory. By being angry and agressive at you he gets everything he wants. His friends have taught him very well.

There is a huge difference between Pity and Compassion. Pity is a useless emotion, it is a non motivating emotion. Climbing on the Pity Pot with your son will get you and him absolutely no where quickly. Compassion on the other hand is a productive emotion. It encourages and motivates one to do something productive because it allows one to feel another’s pain and sadness. It puts one in a mode of “what can I do to help?”. Being a compassionate parent one can recognize a child’s pain and validate it. One can offer support and compassion and guide a child through their journey. One can respect their right to make choices while not approving of those choices. One can appreciate one’s child while not appreciating their choices. The child is a human being who is a part of us their parent and who deserves unconditional love. Their actions and choices do not have to be loved and admired unless they are worthy of love and admiration.

In coaching we use the terms appreciate, admire and respect. “I respect you for making that choice”, “I appreciate your help”, “I admire your confidence or your determination.” Those type of comments promote self-esteem and self-confidence. WE bury the term “proud”. We never use the term “I am proud of you” because that is a fulfillment of our own need and not a reflection of our child’s need to be admired, respected and appreciated.

So if your son decided to only join you for the dinner part of your sedorim I would say “Dovid, I really appreciate that you came for dinner, Yom Tov is just not the same if you are not a part of it in some way”. That makes him feel appreciated. Always look at the positive and not the negative. There are many people in this parsha that stare at an empty seat all of Yom Tov year after year.

There are many ways to make our children feel loved, respected, appreciated and admired without having them blackmail us into giving them things they think they need or want. Some only for the high of seeing how much they can get from their parents. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if one of his chevra dared him to do it. “Hey Dave, why don’t you get your parents to buy you that bracelet. Even if you don’t want it. I dare you to make them get it for you.” Yeah WOW, that happens too.

Do you think it was easy for him to shed his kipah and tzisis? Or to be mechalel Shabbos, he friends pushed him into it. HE didn’t do that out of pain, he did that to conform to the group. That is something you need to realize and maybe the fact that he is broken is because he chooses to stay with a group that doesn’t make him feel good about himself. Maybe he feels guilty for giving up the things that he really didn’t want to give up in the first place. And maybe he is angry about that too, but doesn’t realize it and doesn’t know or understand in his immature mind WHO to blame for that.

WOW, you are absolutely right on all counts. Everything you said is absolutely true and is the root of the problem. But you see it as a problem and he doesn’t. You are hurting over something that HE is not hurting over. The saying goes “time heals all wounds”. This is not the type of wound that heals in a year or two especially because it didn’t happen over that type of time frame. It was an accumulative pain in progress, it is an accumulative yeridah, and it will be a work in progress for an Aliyah. Most especially because he does not have the maturity and mental ability to understand what he needs to understand at his age. And these kids never accept help from their own parents to return, only their love whether they show it or not.

You are in pain and very frustrated because your hands are tied and there is not much you can do. Well that is part of the parsha. You and every other mother in it. The only thing you can do is love him unconditionally and teach yourself this is NOT about you. It isn’t personal and keep the rest of your life and family on an even keel. Make your home a happy one. Make it a place that is full of simcha and a pleasant place to visit. Maybe if there was less tension when he walks in he might give the family a little more time. Obviously he is not starving. Stop looking at what he is not eating don’t let it bother you. And if you do give him his own room don’t be afraid to set some rules.

“Dovid, we realize that you and your brother are not on the same page, and things can get irritating and frustrating between you. Therefore out of respect to BOTH of you we rearranged everyone and are giving you your own room. With that privilege comes a few responsibilities. Mainly keeping it clean and sanitized. I am choosing here to respect your privacy and allowing you to step up to the plate and care for your room alone so I don’t have to come in. If you take any food or drinks in, it is your responsibility to take the dishes, crumbs and garbage out. You can choose to do your own laundry or bring it to the laundry room where I will do it for you, and that includes the linen. The music has to be confined to the four walls of the room and cannot spill out to the rest of the house. And of course you can’t smoke in your room or anywhere else in the house or bring anything else into your room or house that is dangerous.”