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WOW – I’m grateful that I could put a smile on your face, and you made me laugh too. If I was in NY I don’t know if I would’ve extended the invitation.
I am so sad to hear how much damage these people are doing to your emunah but I hang on your words because I am going through something so similar right now. There is a divorce going on and many people who I loved so much and looked up to ( rabbonim and baalei tzedaka both) are willing to destroy two children in the name of rumors/motzei shem rah (money?). People who I thought for sure would be concerned only with truth are willing to condemn these kids based on what they assume is fact based on what they heard from involved parties.
You can support a friend without condemning his enemy and that is what I would have expected from them all. I would have expected them to stay unbiased. I am so disappointed and shattered to see how dishonest and petty some of these people actually are and how far they will go (one person wrote an “objective” letter to the court describing negative behavior he witnessed the father do. No mention that this man PAYS HIS RENT to the mother’s parents) My faith has been shattered, I no longer know who to trust and I can’t believe that this is what our religion has spun into. But as I told you, this isn’t religion, this is the yetzer hora trying to suck me in. Maybe if we grab on to each other we can still find that gravelly path Hashem laid for us.
WOW, I believe that your Husband needs to take another look at this situation and must actually stop it immediately. He needs to confront this RAV and let him know that Hashem does NOT discriminate and no one knows who he will test next with which nisayon. My mother a”h used to say “ver hut kinder in shteib zol shvagen”, those who still have children in their own home should stay silent.
This was a wise way of saying NOT to judge and “al tiftach peh l’satan”, don’t test the satan and invite him in. When a person chooses to discriminate against a child for these very foolish reasons and hurt a child like this, he has no way of knowing how Hashem will punish him. This Rav’s job is to give your second child MORE chizuk than he another child would normally get. Your son needs a true friend in a Rav, a true role model and leader to follow so he does NOT get hurt and he does not go OTD like his brother. HE should have pulled him aside and ask him how his brother is doing, and if he has some understanding what exactly turned his brother off, so he should be extra careful that the same doesn’t happen to him.
That is the position that your husband should take, that is what your husband should say when he goes back to speak to the Rosh Yeshiva and the Rebbe.
Aries, I don’t know if Write or Wrong should follow with your advice. I think the Rov will just say that their son was not accepted for other reasons and it had nothing to do with their older son. Perhaps this is all for the best, there are other schools that he can go to where they will be glad to take him and no comparisons made to the older brother.
WOW: As this parsha wears on you may see that the only worthwhile efforts will be to help your children. Your anger, etc. over the injustices in the schools and community may feel right, but in the end will not help your children. Learning to be an advocate, so that you can effectively counter poor decisions made on behalf of your children, is a crucial albeit delicate skill, but can sometimes get the child through a hump that can otherwise be disastrous. You may have to go searching for a better school for your son, but you need to know how to speak to any hanhala in defense of your son, and indeed, in defense of keeping a Jewish Neshama on the derech hayashar. The right words can sometimes make a difference, I think. The situation is urgent and the menahel should be made to understand the urgency of not pushing a child over the brink, especially one who is already affected by a sibling who was pushed out. And it is not enough to grudgingly take a child in, but they should put out a special effort to understand and support the child, and help him flourish. Hatzlocha u’beracha, WOW.
WOW,
Have you considered moving to another community (I dont mean going OTD yourself) I mean moving to another neighborhood where maybe they wont treat your familes as being differnt.
It might hur to do so, but maybe its nessasary to keep your family.
This is so sad to read that one can live in Eretz Yisroel and feel that the community is not accepting?? WOW: I have you in my thought always…
write or wrong, I think you’re wrong in saying that most people don’t have sympathy for a child that’s otd, any thinking person should, it’s obvious that they are struggling and are unhappy. Unfortunately there are some “rabbis” who don’t act like a rabbi should, but always remeber, no matter where you’re child goes, he is always g-d’s child, and g-d will always love him, and every child deserves to be treated with sensitivity, and respect, since every child has a tzelem elokim.If you don’t reject him, or try to restrict him to much, there’s a big chance he’ll come back, many children do, if they have a warm home to come back to.
The same thing happens in America too, unfortunately. Write or Wrong, I hope you have found some support for yourself like a frum therapist or a rebbitzen type to talk to. You have gone through this for many months, make sure you get some support for yourself so you can take care of your family.
Try not to spend too much time being upset with others that wronged your son. I know it is hard but it is a TOTAL WASTE of time. Focus on your family. Put that emotional energy in them. And of course continue to daven and do mitzvos in that zechus.
WOW, I don’t know if this will speak to you, but I just heard a shiur on theyeshivadotnet by Rabbi Jacobsen on parshas Pekudei entitled The Forgotten Souls, subtitled When Rabbi Akiva showed Moshe how to Appreciate the Alienated Jews. If you have an hour to listen I thought very worthwhile, especially his description of Rabbi Akiva’s viewpoint in his earlier life, before he became a Talmid Chacham. It made me shudder.
EH and DUNO – I might be wrong but it seems pretty clear from your comments that you do not live her in E”Y. B”H I am not in WOW’s situation (and hopefully, WOW, at some point,G-d willing sooner rather than later, you will no longer be in your situation either.) But I’m pretty sure that if I had an at-risk or OTD kid, I’d be out of here as fast as I could book a ticket. As it is, I agonize on an almost daily basis, and struggle with wanting to take my children back to a place where many aspects of life in general, chareidi life in particular, and chinuch for sure is much more wholesome. Now I can see many itchy fingers hovering above their keyboards ready to jump on me telling me how terribly wrong I am for any/all reasons ranging from what a zchus it is to live in E”Y to the fact that at risk/OTD is rampant there as well (I know, Imaofthree, I know). Still, I’ve lived in both places, taught in both places, had kids in school in both places, watched from pretty up-close at-risk/OTD in both places and it’s a different world. The only reason I’m staying is because there’s a degree of gamble (mazal?)wherever you are and if I went back and my kids ended up not doing well I would never forgive myself. So as long as they’re doing OK I’m scared to take the chance. When ARIES says “I believe that your Husband needs to take another look at this situation and must actually stop it immediately. He needs to confront this RAV and let him know that Hashem does NOT discriminate and no one knows who he will test next with which nisayon.” it is also obvious in which hemisphere she lives. Not b/c people in America love their kids more than people here or b/c people in America are more proactive about advocating for their children but b/c you can’t apply rules from one system to another. Rules that we assume are universal (“always advocate for your child by doing XYZ” “You should definitely have gone to the police and filed against the lowlife who attacked your son so your son will know that you are always there for him”) are not always universal and MAY HAVE THE OPPOSITE EFFECT and hurt our children rather than help them.
I know a woman who went for shalom bayis advice to a Rav from a different eidah than the one to which she belonged. His advice got her killed by her husband. The rav was a tzaddik and a “pike’ach” – but the advice he gave was formulated within a different framework than the one in which she was living.
I know it’s hard to believe but I did not come here to rant (and this is one of the reasons that I am a daily Coffee Room lurker since its inception and feel part of the chevra but I NEVER comment.) I really came just to say to you, WOW, that I’ve been following this thread from the beginning (I did post here once b/4); You are often on my mind and in my thoughts – very often; it’s inevitable that with all the sharing you’ve done we’ve all gotten to know a bit of what you’re like as a person…. and I think you’re truly, truly amazing; If you’ve decided to stay where you are I’m sure it’s b/c you’ve weighed the possibilities and this is what serves the greatest good for the most people in your family; I wish I could give you a hug, tuck you into bed and have you wake up a short time later with the whole thing being just a vague memory of a distant nightmare. Instead I will just reiterate what everyone’s been telling you all along – you didn’t make this happen (!!!!), there is no right/good way to “deal with” or “solve” the “situation” but you are doing as close to perfectly as possible. You are displaying superhuman qualities in terms of your devotion, resilience, and fortitude. If all parents were like you the world would be a much better place.
What happened to your next son will, in one form or another, keep happening. Most heads of institutions here truly are not as concerned about the success of the children as they are about their success and the success of their institution. They do not view themselves as public servants – the students are there to serve their purpose. (I honestly say this without the slightest degree of bitterness. It is a fact that, once understood, saves you a lot of frustration and anger.) Any institution head whose primary interest is the welfare of the children in his institution, will be/is running a second rate “mossad” because the upper strata the society here don’t WANT their kids in a place that is not elitist. My humble opinion, if I may – help your other children (especially this next one now)understand this in as benign and not-bitter way as possible. You will do much more for your family by talking to them about what is, what it means for them, how to be true to themselves and to your family and how to be successful people even when some of the cards are stacked against them than by trying to change the system and trying to be “mekarev” some rosh hayeshiva by teaching him the difference between emes and sheker.
Sorry for being so longwinded.
Great post CRGO. You have an understanding of the situation and are offering good advice. Hang in there, Write or Wrong.
CRGO, as much as the world is so large and things are different in different places WE are all human beings, and with the same roots, unfortunately WE are still the same. WE are no different than our counterparts in E”Y. We suffered through the same things and still do. It took lots of time and lots of hard work on the part of parents and concerned community members to make changes here and and to establish a more productive approach and a better insight into what is going on. But in order to achieve it WE had to literally pull teeth and drag our own gedolim at least those that moved a few inches in our direction out of the sand and sink holes, and are still working on them every single day. WE have a long way to go to accomplish what still needs to be accomplished. And you in E”Y have yet to begin and start taking the baby steps that WE here have already laid out for you.k
Yes things are different right now if you compare the two communities, but that doesn’t mean that WE did NOT go through what you are going through and that many of our communities are still not just as stubborn and equal to yours. Did you not hear that nothing bad or improper happens in Lakewood or Williamsburg for that matter??? But in reality that is so far from the truth that it is a busha! People are people all over the world, in any community and in any religion. People are going to make the same mistakes and have the same bad apples wherever you go. It is the choice of those in that community especially those in charge to wise up and do something about it.
Change happens very slowly, but it only happens if people are willing to force change. If people are complacent and say “this is how things are here and it is not going to change” then it is individuals who have to choose to either live with the problems or move. On the other hand, there will always be those heros who will stand up for what is right and teach others that we are here to serve Hashem and NOT to serve the ideas and concepts of ONE or many individuals who run our communities. OUR jobs is tikun olam, and that does NOT mean the goyish world. We can’t fix the goyim if we don’t first fix ourselves. We can’t expect to hold the goyim up to a higher standards if WE are hypocrites and sinners. We have to first correct what is wrong in our own daled amos before we can go and point our fingers at the outside world for what they are doing wrong and against G-d’s will and wishes.
Is it G-d’s will that Rabbonim and mekomos Torah and teaching treat children as if they were objects without neshomas or feelings of any kind? Did Hashem not give them seichel to think with and hearts to feel with, not only brains to learn with? Is Yiddishkeit just a system of rules to follow such as “do as I say and not as I do”, or is Yiddishkeit a concept of love and respect. Aren’t we supposed to Love Hashem and ALL his creations? Isn’t a yid supposed to be b’simcha and love learning Torah and Love doing mitzvos and love being an example for others to follow?
How is it that Hashem made Batya’s arm long enough to reach across the water and save baby Moshe, but our Rabbeim only have a long enough arm when it comes to reaching out to offer a potch?
Am I the one that was taught incorrectly by MY parents and Mechanchim???
Aries: Your hakaras Hatov to your parents is a bushah!
A mamin, really in what way? They taught me that a Yid darf zan b’simcha. They were holocaust survivors and they taught me to follow the Torah as did my mechanchim. They brought me up on the Survivor’s instinct. They taught me NOT to judge other Jews but to help them. They told me to love ALL my fellow Jews and never to judge anyone till I walked a mile in their shoes. They told me never to shut the door in their faces or turn them away.
A busha? Who are you to tell me that? Do you know anything about me or what I do? I do everything to honor my parents and make them proud of me. Everything I do I do for chessed and to help other people without any regard to myself. I don’t charge anyone no matter what help I give them, on the contrary I pay out whatever I can to help them in their times of need. I don’t have to explain to you or anyone else how. I do this because I was raised by amazing parents who taught by example. When I lend money to help someone, in my and heart I give it as a matonah not expecting to ever see it again. If I am paid back it is a bonus so I can help someone else with the money that was returned.
My hakaros hatov to my parents is a busha? What do you know about my hakaros hatov to my parents? What do you know about anything? I get it, I see what you mean, I understand you completely. This is what I have to say to you and your comment. If you are NOT part of the solution you remain part of the problem. And the problem is the same as it was before, it hasn’t changed and that is the reason the problems stays the same.
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate the reminder why I left the coffee room to begin with. You also reminded me that I am not here to discuss this issue with you, nor am I here to discuss the issue of OTD with anyone else. I chose to help WOW and not engage with any of you and your judgmental attitudes. I do what I do for a purpose and I help who Hashem sends my way for the purposes that he chooses to send them my way. Obviously the day I peeked inside Yeshiva World and saw this thread there was a purpose because I hadn’t opened YWN in a very long time. There was a reason why I had the push to do it that day. If I was able to help WOW in any way then that was Hashem’s purpose. He put us together for a reason. What anyone else thinks is not my concern.
I have Hakaros Hatov to you for reminding me of my tafkid. Thank you.
aries, she misunderstood your post. I re-read it a bunch of times and was able to see what she thought you said. If you asked her, and gave her a chance to explain herself in a hopefully kinder tone, I think you would have understood that as well. Being angry and assuming the worst is never productive. You know how easy it is to misread things in posts, it happens all the time.
Syag, maybe the onus was on her to reread MY post before she made the comment she did. But thank you for your comment and putting the responsibility on MY shoulders. On the other hand, you could have easily asked “a mamin” why she made that hurtful comment. I don’t have control over how people choose to read posts. I only have control over the intent and and content of what I write.
I myself choose to read and reread before I respond. I also at times respond but then not hit the “send post” button. That is a choice that is within MY control. As I said, I do the things I do to make my parents a”h proud of me.
Thank you for putting me down for trying to help. I knew why she made that comment and, like I said, I felt it could have been kinder. But I know you are a counselor who understands people with tremendous insight that many others don’t have, and people count on your insight to get them through tough times. That is why it is more uncomfortable for me to see you respond with anger, and why I thought you would be willing to understand what I said. I guess I hold you to a higher standard, in a way, than most people in regard to communication and support.
Syag, thank you for that nod. As a human being I get hurt the same ways other human beings get hurt. I have the same feelings and suffer the same pain, I am not made of stone. That is why I chose to leave the CR to begin with.
As a Life Coach, I hold people accountable and responsible for their actions and their choices. I try my best to be considerate and helpful. I try to teach as I help. When someone chooses to attack me, i have the same right as any one else to respond, and maybe they can learn from my response that THEY should have thought twice about making the comment in the first place. Maybe they should realize that not every comment needs to be posted and not everything that is on your mind needs to be shared especially if it is a personal attack which has no place in a general discussion.
When I make a mistake or hurt someone purposely (I hope i haven’t) or accidentally, i step up to the plate and apologize immediately. I understand that you feel you were correct in choosing to explain to ME what the other poster meant. And I understand that you felt the need to come back at me with your complaint that you held me to a higher standard and expected me to be the bigger person here. But why is that? Why shouldn’t you just look at the situation and respond to the one that “misread” or misunderstood and explain to that poster that they misunderstood the context of the post, and they should not have made such a rude and hurtful comment. Why the need to tell the “hurt” party, you should be mevater because you are the “counselor” you should be more insightful?
This is a teaching opportunity. Yes I could be mevater and I could have ignored it, actually I could have ignored both posts. But both of you could have also made the same choice. WE all had the same opportunity here, not just me, the one who helps others. Everyone can learn to make these choices. As I mentioned in the original post, we can all choose to make a difference in this world. We can ALL learn how to do it.
On another note or maybe on the same note, as a teaching opportunity, what makes you think I was answering in anger? I was pointing something out to you, as you were pointing something out to me and you considered it a “put down”. Should I then consider what you said to me a “put down”? Everything is in the way you choose to read it, not necessarily in the way a person writes it. Everyone has the power of choice. You can choose to have rachmonus, you can choose to dan l’kaf zchus, you can choose to empower and build up or you can choose to knock down, you can choose to help or you can choose to turn your back. It is all in the power of the individual and the perspective in which they choose to see things or read in to them.
wow after being away for 9 months and to see this thread!! I remember when it first started!!
To aries: As a fellow child of a holocaust survivor I can attest that the Kavod for your parents is so great that anyone who did not have that upbringing can not fathom it. Most kids of survivors were imbued with a desire to give their parents nachas after understanding what pain they suffered. The understanding was instinctive. Also the fellow love of a Jew is imbued deeply into our psyches. YOu can see that in today’s world, that pure love has become very rare, which may be one of the greatest underlying causes of the OTD phenomenon of today. When I was a child, the yeshivos accepted any Jewish kid who wanted to learn, and never looked at the parents or siblings or even their ability to pay tuition. A child wanted to learn Torah-no questions asked!
To all of the parents who are suffering from an OTD child: No one who is not experiencing this can fully comprehend the extent of the pain and suffering that resides in the heart of a parent, usually so much worse for the mother. This pain and suffering comes from the depths of a the love in a soul for a fellow Jew, and Hashem does not ignore it! Keep on davening, saying Tehillim, and hold your head up high. These neshomos are only temporarily yours, and no matter what their current “outer costume”, deep down they want a connection to unconditional love, that from your postings, all can see that you are giving them exactly that. One can only come to a love for Hashem and Torah when they first experience love from a parent. ANYONE who hurts you further and fuels your pain will have to answer to Hashem and I do not envy them!
“When I was a child, the yeshivos accepted any Jewish kid who wanted to learn, and never looked at the parents or siblings or even their ability to pay tuition. A child wanted to learn Torah-no questions asked!”
Once I came to the conclusion that yeshivos nowadays are run like a business, it made things much simpler and less hurtful.
“When I was a child, the yeshivos accepted any Jewish kid who wanted to learn, and never looked at the parents or siblings or even their ability to pay tuition. A child wanted to learn Torah-no questions asked!”
Once I came to the conclusion that yeshivos nowadays are run like a business, it made things much simpler and less hurtful.
There was a time (at least here in the US) where Yeshivas were begging for students and would take anyone as there were too many empty seats. Today Students are begging for yeshivas as there are more students than seats.
I remmeber a time (not too long ago, I am not even that old) a yeshiva would take a kid from a non-religious backround , Today how many yeshivas would take such a kid.
lots, just not in your hometown
ZD, I remember when my father a”h came into the school he was greeted as if he were the president himself. “How are you Mr……, can I get you a glass of water, a cup of coffee, etc.” Today, a parent walks into a school he is ignored along with the students. Even if he has an appointment, he is kept sitting outside the office, even in the hallway waiting for hours. And thats if you are lucky enough to get an appointment to begin with.
Emunah 613, it seems we were brought up the same way! 🙂
I just want to mention one more thing. Even though everyone here is anonymous it doesn’t absolve you of your obligations to be respectful of each other and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you would NOT want others to slap you in the face with a hurtful comment then don’t offer one either because you are putting yourself out there to get your face slapped back in response. It doesn’t matter WHO the other party is, don’t expect them to understand or look away.
We are all human beings and we all need to be treated equally with the same respect, with the same kindness and generosity the Torah commands us to do. To expect otherwise is expecting too much, and to do otherwise is doing too little. We may not know who the other party is, and we may not be able to recognize each other but Hashem knows all the players here and HE knows the absolute truth. So although you feel that you might not have the courage to play this game in person and be so quick to judge or speak out and that anonymity of the internet is a game changer, please understand that you are only anonymous to humans but not to HBH. And when all is said and done, HE is the only one that really counts.
I can’t understand why this thread is still up, and hasn’t been closed by the Moderator yet. All the other “OTD” threads get shut down, but this one? Still going? For what purpose?
WOW, I feel for you, it’s hard to be a parent and think that you’ve done something wrong. BUT, I’m an OTD, and I can tell you, with certainty, that when a child goes OTD, it’s NOT always the fault of the parents. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it’s not. Go see a professional, a therapist (NOT a Life Coach. Aries, I respect what you do, but a Life Coach is not a licensed therapist) and the Coffee Room is far from professional.
I can tell you from personal experience that in my case, it was the home, the school, the community… there were many many factors.
Can we close this thread now so that the name calling and blame and fault stops?
PL, because this is NOT a thread about OTD, this is a thread about a woman asking for help with her own situation. It has been that way for almost a year now. Someone decided to hijack it a few weeks ago and take it over. Until then it was just about WOW and her story. She posted when she needed chizuk, and chizuk was offered. It was that simple. A simple situation of chizuk for someone who needed it. It was NOT therapy, it was not coaching, it was simply chizuk from people who cared about another human being.
WOW, you said he was NOT back in school, so what is he on vacation from?
Maybe he can find some sort of pre-Pesach job. I know many boys around here wash and clean cars before Pesach.
I don’t see why this post should be closed as it is offering support and advice to someone in a difficult situation. I think it’s beautiful. But I do agree that it would be helpful for WOW to speak to a therapist if that is a possibility.
Aries: A public apology, I did misunderstand your post. I thought you were talking against your parents, Chas veshalom. I’m sorry I didn’t reread it enough to respond properly.I win try to learn from this episode….syag: thank you for danning me leaf zechus! The last thing I would want to do is to hurt someones feelings….
wow: my tefilos are constantly with you and your family.A gita vuch and a git chodesh!
a mamin, or course your apology is accepted wholeheartedly and I too apologize to you for answering harshly and to anyone that might have felt offended. That is not my purpose and not the purpose of this thread. Let us all please stay on the same page and the right track here.
aries: thank you, a gita voch and a git chodesh
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I.Y.H. it will be any day… It’s just the pain makes everyday seem like years….
Write or Wrong, you buy cigarettes for your son? Why is that? As far as job hunting, you can help him out by inquiring for him, the worst that can happen is that he will say no.
It is very normal to look back at the time when he was frum and feel bad about what he is up to now. But Boruch Hashem he is healthy and alive. I am so sad for the families that lost their children and grandson in the car crash in williamsburg. Boruch Hashem your son is alive and IY”H will come back to yiddishkiet very soon. Keep hoping and praying.
He will feel connected to you because of your love and acceptance of him, not because you buy him cigarettes. I think the reason that he rejects your shabbos food is because if he ate it he would feel guilty for being mechallel shabbos and hurting you. So don’t take it personally.
You are important to him and always will be. He is just going through a rough tekufah. patience, patience….
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