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“for a teenager its a day they cant listen to the Radio, Cant Use the Computer, Cant Drive to their friends house, Cant Talk to their friends on the Phone or computer and basically a day of NO , Cant do this, Cant do that. In fact all they can do is Eat Sleep and Learn a Sefer which they find unpleasant.”
If this is as common as is it being made out to be, we can stamp FAILURE across our entire system of chinuch (as parents, teachers, rabbonim and community) and look for a new approach.
“Anybody have suggestions as to how to handle Shabbos..”
I find that the shabbos table alone has a tremendous power to bring happiness to people, frum and not frum. Therefore, don’t under-estimate how effective the shabbos table can be in helping your child feel happy and loved.
Some possibilities to make the shabbos table more fulfilling could be as follows:
-allow your son (and other members of the family) to place a request for a certain types of food they like.
-possibly start each meal with an interesting story (jewish or not jewish), about a person was faced with hardship, and how they dealt with it. Then invite the family to provide their own opinion about the story or any other lesson they wish to add.
-also, singing is a powerful tool which brings happiness. Encourage your husband (and children who wish to sing) to do so. Though it should not be forced.
I hope that your son and all other children who are thirsting for the beauty of a jewish life find it soon.
W/O/W,
3)Shabbos; Do something to get his attention. Ask him what his favorite dish is. Even something not on a usual Shabbos menu. Sushi/McNuggets/Chinese. If all fails, make/buy him a cheesecake for next to his cereal. (If you want to really blow him over, set a place for him for his milk and cereal, and leave a smiley note) Pack him a lunch! (Check with your rov re helping him carry outside) Why do I say this, because any connection is healthy.
4) When he leaves at night, there is no reason you cant say; Please be safe; I need you.
Hatzllocha to you and to “imaofthree”.
If this is as common as is it being made out to be, we can stamp FAILURE across our entire system of chinuch (as parents, teachers, rabbonim and community) and look for a new approach.
Why do you think Texting and “half Shabbos” is a problem. I dont think its a Majority, but I do think its a significant minority that feel this way (Otherwise it wouldnt be mentioned many places)
The reason I dont give solutions, is real solutions require thinkng outside the box. Telling some NO YOU CANT is not always the best solutions, the best solutions is give them something ELSE to do hopefully more or at least as appealing.
This thread seems to have been started with the purpose of helping one individual person. With that in mind, try to keep the theoretical arguments someplace else. Derailing this thread would not be like derailing other threads.
Depends on the bribe…what do you have in mind?
I dont have answers. All I can tell you I am a realist and see the problem and totally get it.
Until people totally get the problem that shabbos is just not as fun for some as texting, video games, Ipods, Ipads etc there will be no solution.
And comments that people make and act only make it worse. People do not understand that some teens just dont like sitting at the table with the family singing Zemiros and saying Dvar torahs.
I am not opposed to the computer, but it should be given with conditions, like he must go to School and earn it maybe pay for part of it himself
WOW, I am very sorry for you and all the others who are going through similar experiences. I don’t have any answers for you about how to bring your son back; I think different solutions work for different situations, and Hashem decides when the correct solution/yeshuo will come. You have to do your hishtadlus and daven. Professional help under the guidance of a Rav is certainly indicated.
Your son is 16; if you forbid the internet, he will very likely at some point access it without your consent. Don’t make it a red line.
I was a troubled teen a few years ago, I had reached a similar place as your son, and B”H am very involved in learning now.
“Back then” I wanted to buy my own computer. My father told me if I bring a DVD player or internet into the house, I could “sleep in the yard with my computer” because he wouldn’t allow either of those into the house. I did buy a computer and spent hours every night watching movies and browsing online, and was never asked to leave the house. I knew my parents didn’t like what I was doing and I knew they weren’t going to kick me out for those particular offenses.
I believe there is a spark of good in everyone, and an FFB kid who is rebelling has more than just a spark. The neshomo inside him can bring him back. It may take a while, but try not to escalate the situation, and then maybe he will allow the tenuous connection to grow into something more permanent. It happened for me. Also, focusing on the good in him will A) make your validation and acceptance of him more genuine, and B) help you to be more hopeful and thereby enable you to react with logic rather than emotion. You can use your recognition of his good points for yourself to give yourself hope that “me’at or docheh harbeh choshech”. With hope, you may find it eaiser to validate him and accept him.
If anything I wrote caused you pain, please forgive me; I am writing with ignorance of you, your son and your relationship with him.
We should all keep davening that Hashem should bless you and all of us with ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???????
On a practical note, there is an organization that provides free assistance with keeping your home PC kosher. It sounds like they may be able to assist you, and, speaking from personal experienece, they are very good, both techinically and in understanding people’s needs. If you want their number, let me know.
“Soliek- I don’t know, any suggestions? I was thinking about the computer, maybe giving him more computer time.”
I still think that giving him his own computer is a bad idea for a number of reasons. More time on the computer maybe…is there anything else more innocuous that he wants?
Computer777-even without internet??
First of all, movies can also be bad. Not all, but some can be terrible.
Second, it is very easy to carry a small stick in the pocket that nobody will know about, and insert it into the computer in order to have the internet.
Have you ever though of inviting your sons chevra over shabbos afternoon and letting them hang out at your house (NOT for a meal)?
I know there are people around here who let teens hang around there house (especially in the summer when they can hang outside)
The people who do it are actually doing everyone a favor, they realize that some teens need a safe place to go and at the atmosphere and activities can be contained a little bit
Ive seen the poem around the internet and I think its very appropriate here
The idea of teenage rebellion and return is very clear
At 3 yrs “Mommy, I love you”. At 10, “Mom whatever”. At 16, “My Mom is so annoying”. At 18, “I wanna leave this house”. At 25,”Mom, you were right”. At 30, “I wanna go to Mom’s house”. At 50, “I don’t wanna lose my Mom”. At 70, “I would give up EVERYTHING for my Mom to be here with me”.
“Is it possible he could come out of this without counseling? The more I think about it, the more I think that he will never open up to someone, and even if he goes back today to Yeshiva, I know we will be walking on eggshells until the year finishes.”
That’s an interesting question, and it doesn’t have an absolute answer. The discussion came up at our place one night about why some people seem to be able to take what life gives them and keep moving on, and some people fall apart. The only reason we could come up with is that hashem made some people more resilient than others, and that it’s not a universal assumption that just because A powered through his problems that B can power through his. Some people are naturally resilient, some people need others to enable their resilience. So can he recover on his own without therapy, etc?
Depends on what you mean by recover. There are two issues here, one is the fact that he’s moving further off the derech, and the other is that he clearly has some emotional stuff that he needs to work through and sort out. That creates many possible outcomes. He may stay frum, but be constantly resentful; he may abandon yahadus and channel his frustrations and anger into that pursuit; he may stay frum and recover on his own and live as though he never had the problem. Anything is possible if he’s left to his own devices.
What he needs is someone he can trust, someone he can tell anything to. Apparently you’re not that person, which shouldn’t offend you or make you feel guilty, it’s not for lack of trying on your part. Everyone needs their own friend, or mentor, or whatever to talk to and confide in, and that doesn’t have to be a parent necessarily. I had issues, and they were only resolved once I found that someone I could trust and confide in. That can sometimes even obviate the need for therapy. Obviously therapy is highly recommended though.
About yeshiva. I’ll share a bit of my experience. Without going into details because my situation was nothing like you and your son’s, I missed most of twelfth grade. In the beginning of the year I missed once a week, but by the end of the year I only came once a week and even then I came late and cut out early. I didn’t enjoy learning very much, and my priorities had shifted from learning and studying to working and doing my own thing. But I couldn’t officially be employed since I was really in school, so I would hang out at a driving school and the owner would throw me odd jobs here and there.
That was for about two hours a day, and the rest of the time was my own. Through the internet, I ended up getting myself a nice, non-jewish Irish girl to spend time with. I didn’t have anyone else in this world at the time, and she was like a breath of fresh air. We never did anything, but it did come close (we video chatted but never met, but I was supposed to fly over to her several times, and somehow managed to control myself and didn’t go) . So we went strong for around six months, staying up all night talking, texting, calling, until a year later when I got a regular job. I didn’t have as much time for her anymore, but we still talked and texted when we could, hardly video chatted, but we managed.
Then I got a second job, which made me a 9-5 stiff. We stopped actually talking altogether, no more video chatting, and still occasionally texted, but even that tapered off. We haven’t communicated in a long while and I intend to keep it that way. But the only reason I would say I stopped was because I had something else to do. Once I stopped talking to her, I was able to get my priorities in order. Learning, davening, etc, and eventually I landed in Our Place as a volunteer. But the only reason any of this happened with me and her is because I had waaaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on my hands because I wasn’t in Yeshiva, I had my own computer and unfiltered internet, and I was unemployed.
So that should answer both your questions about Yeshiva and the computer. If he doesn’t feel like going, there’s not much you can do about it. But the alternative can’t be staying out all day and hanging out, or lounging around the house doing nothing. IF he doesn’t feel like going to yeshiva then he should have to get a job to keep him busy. Batala mevia lidei shiamum. And the computer is not a good idea. I know that if I didn’t have a computer with unfiltered, unmonitored internet access I never would have gotten involved with that girl.
Coming from someone who is “working his way back”, I would like to give my input as I feel all of you should hear from a current person on what you would call the other side. Calling kiruv coming back or any other term that creates a separation between the parent and the child’s choice of lifestyle, can actually be a lot more damaging than anybody can imagine (trust me, I know). Whether or not you actually call it that to the child’s face does not change one’s attitude and can still be told by the way you react or talk in general. Kiruv means to bring close not bring back. Being that this thread is for a specific child and not general kiruv, I will only say one general thing. I have personally found that the biggest matters when it comes to kiruv, is acceptance and attitude-of the caregiver and it has to be true and real, you can’t fake it because it won’t work.
I am so sorry w.o.w. to hear of your troubles and your family’s.
I think you need someone to help, someone who can see things from outside and put them in perspective. But first of all, it is crucial to know more.
What is happening and why? I understand he is changing his lifestyle, but he is not even mechalel shabbat, not in public at least anyway. So what is going on? Perhaps the problem simply is that he would like to change his lifestyle (to some undetermined western teenager type, because he does not have anything that passionates him at this time? or does he?) and feels that the lifestyle he desires would be incompatible with observance. Then he needs someone who says that he does not ever have to do something he does not want to, including being mechalel shabbos, and who can give practical ideas and solutions. Is there something else, such as he does not believe in G-d? If so he needs to hear different things, such as that what he does is way more important than what he thinks. I think the most important point, and you should definitely have a rabbi he respects say this, is that – no matter what – he should never feel like a second-class jew. You can have the rabbi show up with some excuse, and if you think it’s better, he can say something like that about an imaginary person, rather than address him directly.
I believe it is very important that you protect your other children, not from his “bad influence” and stupid movies (which are available everytwhere nowadays), but from wrong ideas, such as this attitude being a good way to increase attention and love. Imagine in the future trying that with a spouse. Please, talk to someone who knows your family.
WOW, you asked what brought me back. I think I never wanted to be where I was and I never totally gave up hope that I would find a way back. I had a good support system: from my mashgiach with whom I maintained a very close relationship throughout everything, and from my parents; their house was always “Home”. I held on to my (very) hidden goals even as I was working against them, until Hashem sent me my personal yeshuah.
That being said, the emotional turmoil that create these issues and are created by these issues need to be dealt with.
Did I hate learning? Probably not, but it may have looked like it to some people at some points.
You wrote: “Shabbos, for kids, isn’t as much ‘fun’ as those things. Shabbos used to be a release from school and work, now it’s a break from having fun. I think it just goes to show how ‘off’ the focus is in our daily lives in this generation. Technology has really pulled us in. That’s one of the reasons I never wanted to bring all that technology into my home, but it seeps in anyway.”
This is a perfect summation of our times! I think this should be required contemplation material for every parent and educator.
I recommend again reaching out to TAG, who can help you with filters, monitoring software if you all agree to it, etc. to prevent more “seepage”.
zahavasdad-I wouldn’t consider inviting them over for a number of reasons. One, is that my children would probably misread it as an approval of their behavior. Also, my son would absolutely forbid it bc he doesn’t want us anywhere near his chevra. I also wouldn’t be able to do kiruv with kids who are helping my son to go off the derech. I do, however, pray for all of them to do teshuva.
Its NOT Approval. Its Harm reduction. Lets say they are hanging out at the Local McDonalds. Would you rather him hang out there or in your back yard. You would NOT interfer. You would NOT tell them what to do. Its not about Kiruv at all. Its about minimizing the harm done.
“I’m just wondering if there are other kids like this who seem to go through the motions of Yeshiva, yet escape into the secular world of movies and Lady Gaga. What becomes of them? Of their Yiddishkeit?”
Depends on their foundation. Some kids get hooked by secular society and its culture and want a taste of it, but underneath it all they still have a strong foundation in yahadus. Others don’t and the secular world engulfs them.
Also, a person he can be friends with and confide doesn’t have to be a rav or therapist or even someone older or in a position of authority. It can be anyone. That’s what I was looking for when I started talking to that girl…just someone to talk to who I knew would listen. Does he have any good friends outside of that chevra?
“It seems that the girl you started talking to filled a need, and once that need was met, you were able to tap into your own strengths and let it go, making you free to pursue more appropriate supports.”
That sums it up nicely.
Also about the music, you don’t necessarily have to say anything at all, be it encouragement or criticism. You can just ignore it and not say anything. But you’re right, it is bad, and of course it has an influence. Everything we see, hear, and do influences us.
“The problem is, no matter how beautiful the Shabbos table is, we can’t compete equally with the stimulation and excitement kids get from computer games and videos.”
If you look at it this way yes, I agree. However, I dont agree that computer games and videos should be the primary source of enjoyment and stimulation for children of any age. When they dont have these available, they will be miserable and bored, not just on shabbos and yom tov. I believe it is a complete abdication of parental responsibilities to relegate stimulation and enjoyment to computer games and videos, especially when the parents are unable to replace computer games and videos when they are unavailable (shabbos for example).
“A really good dvar Torah is no match unless the child is thrilled learning Torah to begin with.”
I disagree. I child who is used to being stimulated by using his or her brain will be perfectly happy to be asked a question at the shabbos table and be quite happy to get involved.
Children of all ages who are used to being entertained, expect the same at the shabbos table or in shul, or will grow bored. Jumping around like a frog explaining the makkos might help for a 6 year old. Your 13 year old will yawn and walk away. If it happens often enough, they wont want to come altogether.
I believe I wrote this earlier in the thread, generally speaking, kids dont go off a derech they are happy with. They either leave because they are unhappy with the path they are currently traveling on, or because the path is so boring, confusing or filled with hypocrites they seek another.
I dont know you or your son and will obviously not comment on what, how or why in your particular situation, but I am willing to bet that if your son saw you enjoying yiddishkeit it will have an impact on him sooner or later. Perhaps have your husband arrange to have a chavrusah with someone at 3am so that when your son comes home from wherever, he sees him learning enthusiasticly. Perhaps he needs to see the rest of the family eagerly anticipate going to shul or eating a shabbos seudah. If he sees the rest of the family eagerly anticipating something, he might eventually be tempted to join the excitement.
“A really good dvar Torah is no match unless the child is thrilled learning Torah to begin with.”
I disagree. I child who is used to being stimulated by using his or her brain will be perfectly happy to be asked a question at the shabbos table and be quite happy to get involved.
NOT True, I spent the Sedar with Charedi relatives
They have large family with Kids ages from 23 to 3.
I noticed the younger kids were asking alot of questions and then found out they were BRIBED with tickets to ask questions at the sedar, the more tickets the better the prize, then the kids started asking me what questions to ask so they could get more tickets, they couldnt care less about the questions, they just wanted the Candy (Tickets meant purchase of candy) and one of the kids involved in this was a 13 year old girl who is fairly mature
“I agree that kids tend not to go off a derech they are happy with, however I’m sure other factors play a role as well”
I’m not sure what the “however” is in your sentence.
I am not advocating that kids use their brain all the time with no break. I was responding to what I originally understood was being written.
The point I guess I am trying to make if summed up in 3 sentences is simply; Rejecting the path one grew up with is an extreme action. Sometimes, an extreme action, requires just an extreme a reaction. Perhaps the rest of the family displaying the exact opposite reaction (by going out of their way to show the satisfaction with torah and mitzvos in the examples I gave) might have some merit and have a positive effect.
So, the parents gave out tickets. The shulchan Aruch says to give them candy and nuts to get them involved. The parents did what the SA said to do, and it worked. It even got a bored 13 year old involved. Nobody ever suggested sitting 5 hours or more at a seder table was easy for anyone, let alone a child.
Adults get bribed too. Manufacturers offers sales spiffs to sales people. Retailers employ all sorts of gimmicks and giveaways to get people to shop. Many large employers offer employees perks as a means of retaining their services. Some offer performance bonuses. Want to call it an incentive instead of a bribe, go ahead. It is just a matter of semantics. Candy speaks to kids, aat least those of your relatives.
“This Shabbos, my son was invited by his Yeshiva to a Shabbaton. And he went!”
How did he spend shabbos? Did he sleep all day? Did he join his classmates for davening, the meals or learning?
“On the one hand, he now says maybe he will go back to Yeshiva to finish, but on the other, he says he hates learning, and won’t continue to Yeshiva Gedola.”
Perhaps he needs a different Yeshiva, specifically, a different type of program. Perhaps an hr in the morning of a shiur of some sort, or learning one on one with someone to keep an anchor to torah and then he can pursue other things.
“I suggested he consider learning a trade instead, but he doesn’t feel he will fit in there either.”
Dare I say it. College?
Those “factors” are what make them not happy. They may see something as hypocritical, restricting, boring or simply not self fulfilling.
I am not suggesting you are against college. Why not consider it as an option? It will surely keep him busy. Perhaps it will keep him out of trouble. What about a job? Something constructive, anything, is better than sleeping away the day. He might feel a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment and try to do everything to be as productive as he can (which might mean a better nights sleep for example). It might not be the dream or aspirations you had for him as a youngster, but it might be the best thing for him, where he is now.
I dont know why people become baalei teshuva, I have not conducted any studies (heck, I dont know why they go “off” to begin with if they are ffbs), but surely they feel some draw which is advantageous to the path they are on.
How would her kids feel if they wanted to go to a treif restaurant with the chiloni neighbors and she said no? Surely her kids know the family has standards vis a vis pritzus (if not, it would be hypocritical if she waved the pritzus flag and said no). Surely her kids know that not everyone does everything that they are supposed to, this is parenting 101. I’m sure your friend can handle it. If not, she surely has a mentor she can speak with.
What I dont understand why you cant force him to either go to School or get a Job?
It is still your house and you have the right to tell him that he cant just hang out all day
You are being soft IMO, Dont force him to go to Yeshiva Gedolah, but force him to do SOMETHING productive. You can even give him a choice, College, Yeshiva or a Job that way he wont feel trapped
IMHO your first priority is to save your other kids. They need you now, emotionally, spiritually, and physically, more – not less – than before. Saying that something is unacceptable and then accepting it is gornisht verd. Find out what the law is about taking care of a 16-yo truant. If you provide a place for him to stay and pay for it, did you do anything illegal? Don’t give him leverage to threaten you with. If he wants to stay home (which shows that you’re doing something right) use it as leverage against him! If he doesn’t find a school or a job, or his behavior affects his siblings, out he goes.
My heart breaks giving you this advice, but I feel achrayus to mention it because someone told my husband he has an OTD son and everyone told him to keep him home, and it had a terrible affect on his other kids. May you have only nachas from all of your kids, ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????.
msseeker: I once dealt with a parent who chucked his kid out by using the legal system…not a good idea. That is seriously a last resort, and shouldn’t be on the table. That’s very dangerous advice and I don’t think you quite understand its implications.
write or wrong- having been through what you are going through, I can really relate, and although it’s good that you have reached out and gotten support through the coffee room, you need to ask your own shailos and make your own decisions.
We kept our daughter home as long as possible, until we realized that she was miserable and we were miserable. So we decided together (my daughter plus us) that she should find an apartment for herself. I cried long and hard when we made that decision, I had really tried everything and anything but it just was not working! At that point she was twenty.
Did this whole parsha affect my other children? Yes. It made them stronger in their yiddishkiet and kind and compassionate people. They saw that even though we had an OTD kid we didn’t boot her out of the house like a used tissue. One of my other children mentored kids at risk or siblings of kids at risk.
Tell me msseeker, if someone chas v’shalom has a child with cancer, do they kick the child out or put them away in an institution? A kid who is OTD is suffering and in pain and is acting out. By kicking a sixteen year old boy out of the house, you are teaching the rest of the children that unless you are perfect and fit the “mold”, we will not love you and you are persona non grata in our home.
Anyways, the main thing is to be very patient, he’s going through a rough time. Try to focus on the things he does rather than the things he does not. It would be great if you could find a big brother for him to hang out with, someone he could make a connection to. Also,daven and cry to Hashem to help you and help your son.
I would be happy to help you if you have any other questions. I have gone through this and I know how awful it is. Above all, do not be ashamed as so many of us have been through this. Hang on!
It’s not so pashut with the siblings. They sometimes have a multilevel kesher to the OTD sibling , and if the parent ostracizes or enforces separation with the OTD, the others can come to resent the parents. Sometimes they resent the OTD for the stress on the whole family. On the other hand sometimes there can be no calm atmosphere unless the rebellious kid moves out. I think it’s very important to connect individually with each sib and find out how they are thinking about the situation, then deal with each of them according to their needs, to give them chizuk in being empathetic and davening for their sibling, but also realizing the need to distance themselves from OTD behavior.
@ Imaofthree
May I ask if you still have a relationship with this daughter or have you shunned her since she moved out
What percentage of OTD kids come back? Is the parents’ approach to the child while going OTD, connected to which children come back?
Do experts feel certain approaches by parents yield a greater percentage of return?
“As it stands now, he has agreed to finish this year if I give him my computer (without internet) to use when he comes home. Only problem is: his heart is not in the learning, he’s watching secular videos, and I feel completely helpless bc he’s calling all the shots.”
The computer shouldn’t even be a topic of discussion. If he’s miserable in yeshiva, then make that the incentive. He can leave yeshiva, only if he does something else with his day. a GED program, a job, an apprenticeship, college…something. If he really doesn’t want to be in yeshiva, why torture him? The chances of him turning around because he’s being forced into going are minimal. He should need to justify the computer. If he would be in college, he would be able to justify it.
On the other hand, when you say that your son is stuck I completely understand that. It’s why I’m not in college now. True, I work and volunteer, but I never went to college primarily because I’m thoroughly sick of the concept of school. So saying that that should be the other option is easier said than done. Still, it’s worth a shot…I mean why bribe him with something detrimental for something detrimental, when you can have him do something that is constructive, and thereby earn the privilege for what would no longer really be a bribe?
“What percentage of OTD kids come back? Is the parents’ approach to the child while going OTD, connected to which children come back?
Do experts feel certain approaches by parents yield a greater percentage of return?”
Percentages are unknown…but the experts DO feel that it matters how the parents approach the situation. I mean, forget religion entirely and focus on the common sense of it. Assume that you have a completely secular kid in a completely secular family who starts hanging out late with the wrong crowd, and doing poorly in school. Think through all the possibilities of what the parents might do. Or the negative influences on other siblings. It’s really not that different. Religion is just another variable in an already messy equation.
We have parents occasionally walk into or call our place absolutely at wits end because their son just won’t keep shabbos, or won’t come home on time, or smokes, or hangs out with girls etc., and to hear them on the phone they sound like they’re ready to kill their son. “HOW DARE HE NOT LISTEN TO WHAT I SAY, IM HIS PARENT! I GAVE BIRTH TO HIM! AND NOW HE DOESNT EVEN WANT TO KEEP SHABBOS?! HE CAN AND PROBABLY WILL GO TO HELL!!!” And then there’s the “I GAVE HIM EVERYTHING AND THIS IS HOW HE REPAYS ME, BY EMBARRASSING THE FAMILY!!!” Which is a completely invalid thing to say because giving objects and possessions is nothing compared to giving unconditional love, and everyone needs, wants, and appreciates unconditional love.
The problem is that most people don’t quite understand what unconditional love means. It means kind of like what Pirkei avos says ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ???, ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? which I know is an odd way of putting it, but that’s what it is. Unconditional love means that I will love you with no conceivable expectation of reciprocity. If you feel like giving me something in return that’s your business, but I in no way expect it. And that is how a parent must love a child, with no expectation of reciprocity. I can only imagine how hard it is in practice, but even naturally a person feels a strong love toward children that should transcend everything.
So when a parent stops loving a kid because the kid isn’t frum, that means that the parent only loved the child as long as the child did as was told, and stayed frum. That’s an expectation of reciprocity and that makes the love unconditional. If a kid gets arrested in front of the neighbours and the entire community is pointing and whispering, and the parent stopws loving the kid it means that the love was on condition that the kid uphold the family’s good name. A parent’s love should never have any caveats or requirements. It should never be contingent on a specific set of circumstances.
That being said, unconditional love does not preclude chinuch. After all, it is a parent’s job, religious or not, to teach a child right from wrong, but that’s all it is–a job. It is a parental obligation, it is simply something that must be done. But that can never preclude love, even if the child doesn’t follow the path set by the parent.
wow
Very simple to enforce at least some rules
You are not his Chef, Maid , Laundress or Banker (I assume he needs some money to hang out with his friends)
If he wants some of those priviliges he has to earn them by yeshiva, College or working
Ive heard Dr Meir Wikler say that if you treat an OTD child with warmth and acceptance, you have a chance of having a relationship with your child, whether frum or not. If you dont treat the child with warm and acceptance, you lose the child either way.
Id love to hear what he’d say about giving liberties to a demanding OTD child if there are other children in the house.
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