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Zahavasdad, no you can’t separate the kids in this, WOW said one of his chevrah came to help the younger son. This is a group issue with both sets of kids and they all have to be in this discussion of what to do and how to go about it. It is a lesson for all of them and maybe and opportunity they all need to undo or heal some of the issues of the past!
What would you have said to your “bully” if you had the opportunity? What do you want to say to this one? Let everyone write their own letter to him. They have all learned Torah in the past. They are NOT amharatzim. They can still look things up and bring examples. They can sit with your husband and find the examples they are looking for. Your oldest certainly knows how and where to find them. This is a very productive way of teaching this Talmid Chochom a lesson and allowing all these kids to do something productive and positive with their pain!
WOW, everything you do, you do for your kids. If it makes a difference to your kids well being and it makes them feel vindicated then do it. No one knows what will happen to the other party. Will it ignite something in him. Will he listen to the mussar maybe not, maybe he might learn from it. Even a gadol can learn from a child. Or he can ignore it. That is not your issue. What he learns from this lesson is not really your concern. Your concern is what your children learn from this lesson. That is called parenting!
WOW, you can’t know what the kids will choose to do until you give them the option. They never before had this option. Never before did anyone encourage them to write to anyone in authority especially any Frum person in authority and truly let them know how they feel and why they went off the derech. Now is their chance. And maybe after they write to him, they might find the courage to write to those who actually did the deed. No one ever, told them or even allowed them to speak from their hearts and target their pain, anger and frustration.
I’m not sure if writing a hate filled letter to someone who was not involved in their pain has the same therapeutic value as a letter that ‘speaks from the heart and targets their pain anger and frustration’ being sent to the right party.
As you see from peoples posts, some people are just angry and hateful. They may have good reason to feel that way but they are still at the spewing stage. If the kids are ready to bare their angry hearts, they should do so, but why encourage writing hate filled letters to an unrelated subject, or transposing their anger from one abuser to another.
This man should definitely pay for his abuse, and I don’t get how anyone in the community could dare interfere, but I hear our own personal anger toward other types of abusers being projected here and for WOW’s sake we need to be clearer.
I have ZERO tolenrance for abusers, Whether its a Catholic Priest, A Penn State Coach or a “Talmud Chacham”.
It also saddens me how I see charedim being bullied by other Charedim. It shouldnt be that WOW is scared to go to the police and intimidated from doing so.
If the man had robbed your house, would you go to the Rav or go to the Police. If he robbed your house you would not have the kids write a letter.
I am sorry to say this , but I would leave the community if I was forced to allow an abuser to run free and imimidated by other community members not to punish them.
If the man was a “Talmud Chacham” and owned a butcher that was caught selling trief, would you buy from it or write him a letter.
Syag, let me be clear. I never said anyone should write a hate filled letter. I said they should write about what happened to them and why they are hurting, or quote from the Torah and Talmud to give over Tochecha.
aries2756 – I’m sorry if you thought I was implying that you recommended they should do so. I thought I was clearer. Though they may be asked to write a letter from their hearts expressing the pain they have been put through, some people are likely to just spew hatred to any frum person in their wake. Not cuz they were asked to, just because that is all they have the strength/self awareness for.
WOW – Hashem should give you strength. And Baruch Hashem your husband is being joined with you in this mission. Hatzlacha.
I think a dorm may work wonders for your older son (though he won’t change overnight, obviously) and I hope that he and you will find the right place. I mentioned ACE as a place to look into several months ago and there’s also KESHER which advertises on YWN as well as YESOD – an Ohr Somayach program. I know of an OTD boy in YESOD who is baruch Hashem doing very well there…
In terms of the situation with your other son, I was discussing the story with my husband who said that in E”Y you have to be very careful with a person like that man. Before going to the police you have to have the Rav on board or the community could end up turning against you and your family. Going to beis din is (hopefully) a very good idea and will (again hopefully) help your son to feel that something is being done.
To all of the naysayers – WOW has to deal with the reality of where she lives. Yes in the US we would not hesitate to report an assailant like that man to the cops, but in E”Y WOW has to play her cards right in order to garner community support against this man and not to let HIM make himself into a victim (which, by the way, is a more creative form of bullying ultimately).
WOW, may HKB”H continue to give you the strength to handle every twist and turn and may you have hatzlacha in this and every challenge.
Thinking of you from this side of the ocean…
While he is at home can you speak to him, for example, ask him “What is bothering him?” or something like that?
Maybe he is praying that he will get into the Dorm Yeshiva with his friends. Don’t say anything. If you make a fuss over it he will stop.
maybe he is trying to let you know that underneath it all he really does love you and wants you to be happy.
Great, so maybe he is thanking Hashem!!! When does he start?
WOW, I think it is best that you just follow his lead right now. The key point in your story is that he took a break from his friends and he ASKED you to remind him to put on the tefillin.
Even though he stopped already and went back to the friends, who you said got into the Dorm Yeshiva (?), he did relate to you, communicate with you, trust you, etc. That is a step in the right direction. Baby steps are good no matter how long they last, they are good!
aries – are you still available online somewhere? Not that you can give that info out here . . .
I thought he would start to come home at night when the weather turned cold.
Syag, I left the coffee room for very obvious reasons. I peeked in and found this thread months ago and offered my help. Honestly, I am not interested in debating anyone. If you need my help I will tell you how to find me.
WOW, you truly need the patience of a saint to deal with this parsha. You showed your sons that you love them and honor them, and that you are fierce to stand up for them. You showed both your sons and their chevra that you are worthy of their respect. Everything happens for a reason. Let Hashem run the show. Don’t push it, do your job and watch it play out. Maybe the sehlichim or doing their job as well.
I do remember you leaving but have retained no memories. I post/read very selectively myself. I hope your comment about debating wasn’t in answer to me, I hadn’t intended debate, I could use your advice but don’t want to hijack this thread anymore than I am already doing with this post.
(sorry WOW for the diversion
Syag, you can ask the moderators to put you in touch with me, or ask Rabbi Yanky Horowitz. I have been posting on his website this past week because of the trial. You can also ask Avi Fishof from Home Sweet Home or Twisted Parenting. He can put you in touch with me. You can also write the editor of Adkanenough.com. Let me know if you write to her, I will let her know to give you my email address.
Write or Wrong: I am not thrilled with the idea of your son going into a dorm and picking up bad things from other boys. Be careful with that.
Has to be a dorm with very good supervision. And are trained and equipped to deal with kids that are off the derech.
By the way, what does your son do for money? He gets an allowance?
There are worse things than cigarettes unfortunately. Maybe you could look into finding different job options for him. Maybe a friend of yours is an electrician or a plumber and needs a helper and would do you a big chessed by hiring him and getting him off the streets.
WOW, you can only help him find jobs if he wants you to. You can ask in such a way “Remember how you asked me to “help” remind you to put on tefilin when you chose to do that for a while, would you be interested in me helping you find a job?, If there is anything you would like me to help you with, or you want to talk to me about. I’m here for you and ready to listen”.
In that way you are NOT forcing your ideas on him, or pushing jobs on him, you are just asking him if he is interested in your help.
BTW, I just peeked into the other topics on the CR list. I have been following the trial from the beginning of the story. I want to point out to all of you the importance of listening to your kids and supporting them through their very, very difficult journeys. The outcome of this story would have been a totally different one, had the family not supported her so fully and completely. Lets all learn a lesson from this. Our children are our children no matter what, no matter their choices, if we don’t love them and protect them, we are basically throwing them to the wolves.
Of course not force into a job….you can’t force him to do anything!
WOW, you have to open the path. When he wanted you to remind him about the tefilin he found a way to tell him. Open a path and let him find his own way to travel on it.
YOu ask about him opening up to you. For the years I went through my thing my mom would take me on countless walks and each ended in a fight, in retrospect probably all of which were my fault. She tried getting things out of me but i hate exposing myself so I avoided telling her much. Yet she still would try to reach Out to me and if not for that, there’s not a chance our relationship would be where it is today. It needed maturity on my part but if she hadn’t persevered its likely I wouldn’t be frum.
How about taking him to a amusement park or something like that were he would enjoy himself, then asking him to express himself?
Just a word of caution on the idea of finding a plumber/electrician etc. to hire as a chesed: very important to make sure the person who hires an OTD has his heart in the right place. Unfortunately, some will take advantage of the young person’s situation and cause more problems. If, however, someone with a good heart will hire him, it can go a long way to helping him mature and feel worthy.
WOW, you known him best and so you will have to use your own judgment just how to make the approach…”Chaim you haven’t mentioned whether you have found a job or a dorm yet. I just want you to know that if you would like my help doing research for either just let me know and I will do my best to assist”
Or you might want to go a different way. “Chaim, I haven’t heard anything from you in regard to either a dorm or a job.. Are you having trouble deciding what you want to do?” Whichever way you choose, be calm and speak in a very non confrontational manner.
WOW, anger fades much faster than pain. Do you think he would be more hurt than angry if he thought you were ignoring him or you didn’t care? There is a fine line between giving a kid space and not caring or ignoring. Sometimes for a child that line gets blurred.
Lets face it he needs you. He doesn’t want to, and he for sure doesn’t know he does nor does he want to admit it. But if you stop reaching out, even if he shows anger, which by the way he probably doesn’t even mean, he might think you stopped caring. Would you rather take the bite, or would you rather him feel you stopped caring to feed him?
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