Going off the Derech

It was a general statement.

When someone is in pain, others need to understand the sensitivity of the issues and how vulnerable a person can be. If an OP comes here for chizuk, the last thing a person needs to do is poke,prod and push. If you feel you can be helpful then do so in a sensitive manner. Pushing your point of view or agenda on a person who is stressed and feeling so much pain is NOT helpful.

In addition, if one is not being received as intended, then maybe it is the poster who should “bother” to read through the history of the thread to truly understand what the OP has already gone through, what questions she has already answered and what helped or didn’t. Coming into this conversation in the middle of a long thread without this history or back up knowledge can cause misunderstanding and frustration. You can also bring up old hurts and wounds that are already being worked on for resolution, and touch a nerve that is too sensitive for the poster to reveal.

Just because we want to try and help someone does NOT mean that we have the RIGHT to know everything or give them the third degree. A person will share whatever they are comfortable sharing. Playing at psychoanalyzing them with pointed questions and then some “insight” into why they are not answering them is counter productive and useless. If you choose to play at being a therapist then you need to learn how to react when your client clams up and shuts you down. The point being that no one HAS to offer help and the OP does not HAVE to engage in anyone who wants to play that game with her. She also should not be put into a position to defend her actions. How does that help?

I believe that when a person does a chessed such as give chizuk to someone in pain, they need to understand how that person needs that chessed. Whether or not she needs to be supported or whether or not she needs to be challenged. Jt is up to us to give them the Chessed they need in the manner that they need it or we aren’t really doing a chessed.

WOW This is a public thread, I think, correct me if I am wrong, and it is my very humble opinion that no one should have to give explanations and excuses for following it. It looks like you did not notice, but plenty of readers have been restraining themselves, as there is a mitzvah to be silent when our words of truth will not be well-received. It did not occur to you that perhaps I am possibly aware that the facts are, let me not say different, let me use an understatement and say more complicated, as opposed to how you represented things here?

@interjection, I assume you have read the whole thread as it was posted, if you did not yet, please do.

WOW, it saddens me that you have made this choice but I fully understand it. I too walked away months ago because of posters who did not realize how insensitive they were being. It is difficult to be as sensitive as an anonymous cyber persona than a “real” person. I don’t know why I took a peak just at the time that you posted, but I am glad that I did, and if you noticed I have not gone into other posts.

At this time, I would like to offer you another option. If you need me, you can ask the moderators to give you my email address or you can ask Avi at Twisted parenting to give it to you. Please contact me when necessary and I will try and support you as best as I can. I would also ask you to please reconsider and not allow yourself to be pushed away when there are so many really sensitive and caring people who have actually helped and offered you true chizuk. I know that it hurts, even though no one can see that it does. But if being here has helped you, then it has served a very good purpose and one that should continue and not stop because of individuals that do not have the proper perspective or understanding.

i, too, have been following this thread without posting. anyone who has had any kind of experience (personal, professional etc.)with children that are otd, would hear only your pain and your resolve to the the best for your son. i’m not sure where some people found discrepancies or inconsistencies “between the lines”. if you can muster up the strength to ignore their posts, we would appreciate your continued postings. if you would like to know some “toeles” in this thread here is one thing: although i do not know your son’s full hebrew name, Hashem does. and when i davened on rosh hashana i included him in my tefillos(along with those children that are otd that i do know their name and their mother’s name). if you feel you cannot continue the posts, that is certainly your choice to make and i wish you hatzlacha, strength, clarity and besoros tovos. good shabbos

I guess you feel that since you dropped everything to wine and dine your son and buy him clothes you feel hurt that he can’t even let you know where he is when he is not home.

Your son is at that very selfish rebellious age. But he does need you and deep down I think he feels badly that he is hurting you. You need to be very patient, with time they do mature and grow up! Do NOT allow him to ruin your upcoming simcha!

We continue to daven that things will improve very soon.

WOW, I see you are confused and torn about what I said.

WOW, how did your husband react to that logic? It is very sound advice and something that I have been trying to relay to you about typical and basic respect and consideration. The choices he is making for himself are his and he expects you to respect them which you are. On the other hand, he doesn’t have to rub them in your face, nor does he have to be disrespectful to you or the rest of the family. Respect is NOT exclusive to the religious or Torah world. Respect is universal and without it, there is very little hope for mankind in general.

Please continue with your simcha plans and have much nachas from the source of the simcha and the entire mishpacha. You can’t let this child or these issues deter the joy you feel from the other child’s accomplishment or growth. Each child deserve’s their own attention and kudos. Each child deserves their own moment in the spotlight and their own applause. Make sure that they get it. You must put your trepidation aside. You can’t worry whether your OTD decides to show up or not. It would be very special if he cleaned up his act and realized his position in the family and made an appearance, even more so if he participated as a mentch, but the simcha will go one with or without him. Please understand that there are many simchas that take place when kids are away in yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel and parents just can’t afford to keep sending tickets back and forth to bring kids in or the Yeshivas themselves don’t feel that it is good enough reason to allow the bochurim to leave yeshiva and go home to participate. Yet the simcha continues with or without the missing child. In addition, when a family member is ill c”v, the simcha must go on regardless.

In this case your son is considered a choleh, that’s true, but he also has the choice whether to show up and act appropriately, show up and behave inappropriately or not show up at all. Whatever he chooses, it is out of your hands and not within your control. What is in your control is to be mesameach regardless and to make this the best simcha it can be for your other children. They deserve no less!!! And YOU and YOUR spouse deserve no less. So if you can accept this little bit of advice from me, put this issue to the side and enjoy, enjoy, enjoy. Take your nachas from wherever you can and enjoy those moments. Bask in the glory of that nachas and don’t allow the sadness of the reality of your life leak in. You must count your blessing and not look at your loss. Now is the time to count your blessings and realize that simcha breeds simcha. So put a smile on your face and open your heart wide and let the good feelings of happiness and joy take over.

As far as a dormitory for your son, that is a nice idea if he would agree to do that. I don’t hold out much hope that he will agree. I would try Kesher, Neve and Ner Yaakov because they are more geared to American boys in pain. It is very possible that he would connect with these most caring Rebbeim who truly understand the parsha and have tremendous heart and soul invested in these boys. He might recognize their honesty and mesiras nefesh and that might make all the difference in the world to him. There is a manhig I believe from Kesher that is called “Kahuna”. I am not sure, I met him when he came to NY. The boys really love him. He says he is not a Rav, but he has a following.

Most important of all, I am so happy to hear that you and your son spoke. That is the most important thing of all. Communication is the key to all relationships and keeping the lines of communication open is the most important thing you can possibly do. How did that happen? That is the most important piece of information that you can relay to the rest of the readers.

WOW, that sounds great and encouraging. I hope you feel my HUG across the ocean!!

Good to hear! Much hatzlacha! We are with you and your family and the rest of our brother in EY under rocket attack.

aries2756: I don’t agree on him going to a Secular School, because the main influence is from friends. But I may be wrong.

WOW, at this point you really “need” to give yourself permission to stay out of the line of fire. You are entitled to a break and entitled to enjoy your simcha. In addition your child is entitled to have his mother be there fully and completely for HIS big simcha and be as understanding and caring with him about his needs, concerns, nerves, excitement, etc., as your oldest son. For these few days the spotlight needs to move away from your eldest and unto the star of the show. Please don’t lose focus and just try to let whatever happens with your oldest not effect you. Please try and implement the tools we tried to teach you to “ignore” the hurt and not allow ANYTHING to affect you or ruin this simcha for you. YOU are in control of your own actions. YOU are in control of your own emotions and if YOU choose NOT to let anything ruin this for you or your current shining star, then it won’t. Nothing is going to change in the few days that this is happening. Your oldest will just have to “buck up” and deal with whatever comes his way at this time.

Don’t look to get into arguments with him, don’t look to bribe him into doing anything for you. Give him his options and his choices and he will do what he chooses to do. He will regardless of what you say or do. So please make it clear and dummy proof “Chaim, I hope you know that it would mean so much to your brother if you would be there for him at the simcha. No matter what, you are still his brother and he loves you very much. It will hurt him each time he looks at his pictures and he will be reminded that you were not there. We will all feel that an important piece of our family is missing. Please try to remember when you were his age, and you were in his position, what you would have felt like if someone important to you would not have come.”

He is not the sort of boy I would be comfortable with knowing he has a weapon, is he.

The Torah of truth does not advice that children should be rewarded if they do wrong and does not suggest we forbid the permissible. You can keep following that path and you can be sure things will not improve.

For all the curious readers, I have children. They are golden and they are smart, even though, of course, far from being even close to their teachers, let alone being compared G-d forbid to the Rishonim, to whom even the gedolim of our generation can’t compare.

WOW, Mazal Tov on your Simcha, Today is a huge test for you as it is for K’lal Yisroel. As the rockets and the threat of war hangs over head, what can one rely on? Only their faith, bitachon and emunah in Hashem. B”H, our Chayalim and Chayalos are trained well. They are confident and strong and they have one extra advantage, Yiddishe Seichel. In addition, Hashem is with them as are the teffillos of millions of people who pray for their safety and the safety of Eretz Yisroel.

In the mean time, life goes on in Israel. That is the most amazing part of the Israeli and Jewish spirit. Jewish life goes on no matter the threat no matter the circumstance. One takes every precaution, as the Torah requires, but life goes on.

So do what you need to do and understand that each child is going through their own challenge right now. Your “simcha boy” is worried about what might happen on his big day. Your oldest is possibly feeling guilt and confusion right now. Should he give in to his feelings of love and loyalty to his family or should he be the big kahuna to his friends and keep up the uncaring persona he has been showing these past few weeks? If he cleans up and comes to the Simcha, will it demean his stance? If he doesn’t show up will his family hate him? Who knows what is going on in his mind? Maybe it would be ok to tell him everyone deserves a day off. Maybe he could take a day off of his “normal” routine and just chill with the family. Maybe that would help him decide without going through all that emotional inner turmoil.

Mazel tov! Just wanted to wish you much Yiddish nachas always, from all your children.

WOW – Mazel tov and Hashem should bentch you with Koach and a yeshua.

“But B’H, once the music started, everything started to melt away. Wish you were all there…”

WE WERE!!! You were too busy to notice B”H!

I am so happy for you. I just want to point out that your son came because he loves you and the family. It doesn’t matter what he wore. The point is that he came, and his friend was interested enough and supportive enough to come as well. They didn’t do anything to take away from the simcha, they enhanced the simcha by respecting all of you enough to show up! B”H.

Look at it this way. If you had a child in the IDF, he would have come in uniform and he would also NOT have matched the others so the pictures would also not have been so “uniform”. In a few years he will look at the pics and say “Mom, I look like an idiot I can’t believe you LET me come dressed like that!” and then you can all have another good laugh about it.