Going off the Derech

“I have that with my son as well. While he is not otd,”

Adams, you do not have a kid off the derech, you can’t understand and I am glad you don’t. Your son fasts on Yom Kippur, doesn’t eat bread on Pesach, doesn’t eat at McDonalds? Acceptance does come but first a parent goes through a mourning process.

Write or Wrong, don’t give up, your son is young and he could come back to frumkiet. He is at a tough age and he will mature and grow up. Hang on and be patient.

dear write or wrong, I’ve read all the post and believe my hart goes out for you.

I am a mother of 7 and I was almost there where you are now. The secular world seemed sooo atractive …that stated shortly after his Bar Mitzva. A very intelligent boy, whatever he learned came easy, talented in many ways but not musical. designing film stars and not wanting to look at the picture of a godol to design etc… We agreed to let him go to a jewish frum but with lots of secular studies for 1 year. and at the same time we sent an application to a very good Yeshiva abroad. That was the condition. During his year in school we gave him all the support, intrest, books etc that he wanted. this first zman in yeshiva this year has been very hard. Believe it or not, he was homesick! Calling a few times a day, talking to all his siblings ( what never happened before) bein hazmanim, he has been seeing his old friends, but his attitude at home is totally changed. his smile is back Baruch Hashem, we daven dat this change is a long lasting one.

what MY BROTHER suggests sound very good, but I wonder who are the others who are going with how far OTD are they?

I believe strongly that sending away to a new place where no one knows him, can do wonders, but of course you cannot force him, maybe you can make a deal, and it should not sound like it is forever.

whishing you lots of Hatzloch and syata Dishmaya

wow. Wish you continued strength and support.

Just to say with regard to the IDF, I have seen a number of young men OTD who have eventually become more respectful and closer to their families as a result of army discipline and most of all life experience. Suddenly arguing over what to wear and how does it look seems really petty compared to other bigger issues. Seen a number of rebellious kids grow up rabidly, they may not have the appearance the charedi world might wish, but surprisingly army experience actually reinforces the importance of family and respect.

WOW, I don’t believe in “tough love” I believe in “loving tough”. That means loving hard and strong even though it hurts.

We can’t control other people only ourselves and we can’t change other people only ourselves, even our own children! The more WE try to control and change them, the more we tug on the rope that binds them to us, the more they pull away. It is only when we give them the slack they think they desperately need or want do they see that it is neither what they truly want nor what they need at all. But this is a learning process both for the child and the parent. This can’t be told to either, it has to be learned from experience.

It is the strong and loving parent who learns to ease up and let go a little at a time, just enough to allow them to take those independent steps they think they want. It is those parents who allow them to make their own mistakes, no matter how difficult it is to watch and how much it hurts to bear, that will eventually have nachas from the mature adults who learn life lessons from their experiences and dark journeys. Neither parent nor child may end up with what they want at the beginning of the journey, but both will learn to respect, appreciate and love one and other as the unique and special individuals that are, most dear and most important in each other’s daled Amos.

It must be very hard that he is out all night, you are understandably very worried. Does your son have a cell phone? I would tell my son that in case of emergency he should call and I will pick him up. no questions asked. And I would sleep with my cell phone on my night table. Would that work for you, would it make you less worried at night?

WOW, it is as if you are acting out a scenario that so many have already done. He will keep doing as he does and play out his role to the enth degree as so many others have before him and you can only do your part as a mother. Keep telling him you love him!!! Keep sending him encouraging and loving notes!!!! NEVER throw them out!!!! Keep all of those that he returns. If he read them, he filed it away in his mind and his heart. When the time is right you can take them all out and return them to him. You will be able to show him that you were there with him through his journey and that he was never alone. But, you can’t stop a racing train. You can stand aside and watch it pass or you can stand in front and be run down. When you put your heart out there for him to trample on that is exactly what you are doing.

It is HIS journey!! You can’t pull on the reigns and guide him back onto your own path for him. HE has to walk the path in his own shoes. He has to learn his own lessons. He doesn’t want to hear them from your voice, but he will feel them in your written words. He will take from them what he wants in his own private space and pocket them for when he needs them. Your words are NOT falling on deaf ears or on a stone cold heart, he only wants you to believe that it is. But they are penetrating and will continue to penetrate as long as they are words of love and support.

“i know that you feel you must try on this new lifestyle for size, but don’t be afraid to discard it if it doesn’t fit! I know that you are on your own journey right now, one that I might not understand, one that frightens me a lot, I fear for your heath, I fear for your safety, I fear for your well being and I fear for your future. I realize that you are only thinking about the moment and living for the moment, I guess that is your job, you are still a kid. But I am the grown up here, the Parent, and I have to be mature and use the common sense that Hashem gave me. You are NOT the first to go down this path and I understand the dangers out there. I understand that you can’t see them. I understand that you don’t believe they exist. I understand that you don’t understand why I am so on edge and afraid for you. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with the fact that you are my son, my child, born to me, precious and special to me, a gift from Hashem to me and to Tatty, and I can’t stop loving you nor worrying about you.”

Sounds like he is very manipulative. In order to get what he wants he threw your note in your face, figuratively. At this age they ALL think that their parents are horrible.

You don’t have to wait. You win by telling YOURSELF that you are a fantastic mother. That is why I keep telling you to nourish YOURSELF, by going to a shiur for chizzuk, doing a hobby, going out with your husband, etc. whatever you need. Don’t wait for your son’s approval. He will love and approve of you eventually but you first have to love and approve of YOURSELF. Don’t let him control your emotions.

You are his MOTHER. not his friend. always remember that.

Let Him!

Also someone gave me powerful chizzuk today that I am still trying to internalize and that I think could be mechazek you, and if you could get the message to your son, to him too.

There are some people who have only good. Everything works out for them and they don’t have to think. It’s only when God puts challenges in our life that we actually have to think.

When we go through a nisayon, it’s the Ribono Shel Olam coming in and holding our hand. If He would let go for a second, the nisayon would dissipate. If He let things go according to nature, everything would work out smoothly and we wouldn’t have any reason to think. It’s only because God is here holding our hand that the nisayon can exist. The Ribono Shel Olam wants us to call out to him and tell him, “I am your child and I am in pain, help me with my pain,” and He always does help.

And always remember that Hashem is as much a parent to your child as you are. He is with you and He is with your son.

How is it going, Write Or Wrong?

Derech – That was really powerful, thank you.

“I’ve been staying mostly quiet because anything I could say is already being said here better than I could say it, but reading this last page I thought of something that I might be able to offer.”

DH, nope I think what you said was much better than anything I wrote over these past few months!!

aries2756: Thanks but its clear you must be a psychologist of some sort with experience from lots of people. I only have my experience which is just one person.

write or wrong: One thing I noticed which was brought up a few times in the past, is your husband. I understand that he probably doesn’t need the extra support you are getting from the coffee room, which is understandable. but do you feel he is contributing (or trying to contribute) towards a positive relationship with your son? As a mother there is only so much you can do, some much life that the two of you can relate on, in comparison to your husband. I understand that as a man, he gravitates towards anger at a problem that he feels powerless to fix. But is there anyway he can bring himself to be friendly with your son? I’m sure he tried, but to keep trying.

If as you said, your husband tends to be angry at this situation, he probably has a strong personality. And your son probably looks up to that and on some level is trying to compete with that to prove to himself that he is a man and not a child. If your husband can prove to your son that he already sees him like that, that might lower the animosity that your son has towards him and by extension you, since on some level you are both one to him.

I’m sure your son likes to drink and sees it as an “adult” thing. Imagine if your husband asked him to sit out on the mirpeset to schmooze and have a beer. How much that would make him feel accepted by the only real “adult” model he has right now. I know that right now you barely see your son and when you do its only to hear him yell at you. But maybe there will be an eis ratzon by him that your husband can grab.

I want to reiterate one more thing. As long as you see yourself as a doormat and the things your son does as things you have to deal with and struggle not to blow up or cry about, the more tension that will be created in the house. And a child can detect tension better than a metal detector at the airport can detect a 100 keys on a key-chain sitting right next to a big metal belt buckle. And when your son detects tension, his first response is to get angry to suppress the guilt he feels over it. And once he’s angry everything just gets out of hand. So the fight is over the second he walks through the door. And not just him, your other children too. You can’t control your 16 year old, but your other children still rely on you to set the tone for the house. And the younger a child is the better they are at smelling that tension.

It’s so important to change the way you feel about your son and his actions. For you and your husband, for him and for the rest of your family. Then iy”h kmayim panim el panim your son will also be able to change the way he sees you.

All good points. As they say the best defense is a good “offense”. This seems to be the child’s MO.

The issue with the school is concerning to me. It is again an issue of accountability and responsibility. The children themselves “chose” this school and yet didn’t take it seriously. It is their responsibility alone to fight for another opportunity to be admitted. Sleeping all day will not get them what they want. That will NOT prove to the administration that they are serious about a second chance. Giving up on the opportunity, will only cause them to blame the “school” for throwing them out and not accept responsibility on their own part for getting themselves thrown out. So the question is how to approach your son and/or his friends by association on how their campaign is coming along and what exactly is their campaign for getting themselves re-admitted? If they truly want something they should have enough determination to go after it. They should be encouraged to pursue it and request from the administration what they need to do in order to get a second chance and then do it.

How could you or should you approach your son on this subject? Again, if you don’t get the opportunity to speak to him one on one, write him a note telling him that you are concerned about him and his friends and the opportunity that they have missed here. Let them know that anything worth having is worth fighting for, and since they themselves researched and chose this school for themselves they should NOT give up the opportunity of going there. They should do whatever is in their power to fight for a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance if they are serious enough about fulfilling the opportunity offered. It is up to them to find out what they need to do to get that second chance and then do it. No one can do it for them, they are the only ones that have the power to make this happen. If they don’t pursue it they will blame others for this lost opportunity when in truth they will have no one to blame but themselves.

WOW, this is a lesson that you can teach them, all of them, without scolding them or speaking down to them. If they fight their way back in and realize that it is actually an opportunity for them and do take it seriously from here on it, they can possibly gain a positive experience to some small degree from the administration and teachers there.

write or wrong- hi just saw an ad on yeshiva world for this yeshiva very low pressure.. its called kesher… maybe look by the ads now on top and c if u wana look into it. i dont know anything abt it but maybe if this whole situation doesnt work out then u can try contacting this yeshiva?

WOW, I understand the Kesher now has a program for Israeli kids as well as American kids. He might just find himself a place for himself there because he can choose which group he fits better in. As far as not having the bus, how are they finding their way to the yeshiva on their own? That is a responsibility they have to work on. Just because they don’t have the convenience of provided transportation should NOT stop them from finding a way to get there on their own. That is the challenge and that is what they have to figure out to show their commitment to the administration. If he does it own his own or he does it together with anyone else or everyone else, he needs to be encouraged to get up and stand up to the challenge. Maybe this is where you husband can take an active role and be the “man to man” example. This might be where he can discuss the challenges in life and how to overcome them. He might be able to “work” with him here instead as seem to be “against” him. This might be an opportunity for them to bond on this issue. However it has to be with positive energy and never in a negative light.

Wow, it seems as though you are contradicting yourself.. on the one hand you are saying that he is emotionally unhealthy and on the other hand you are saying that he is simply lazy so I am not sure what the real case is here if he truly has a mental illness or not. have you given up on him?

You say that he has many talents but has never attended any classes–is there a reason for that? perhaps he feels that it is too late to start anything?

perhaps, instead of just offering to send him to karate classes which may or may not interest him, you can do as I suggested and find several different brochures of programs that he may be interested in–maybe music since that is what he is into these days. again, dont offer to send him anywhere, just give him the brochures (of several different programs so he has options) and see if that sparks an interest in him. he may yet surprise you…

perhaps you can try some sort of reverse psychology by getting your other children to participate in extra-curricular non-threatening or non-religious activities like karate, kickboxing or swimming and when he sees how much they enjoy it he may be compelled to join them in their activities.

another form of reverse psychology would be to go see a movie with him. then go out to eat with him and discuss the movie at length. you can try it with different things like going to a concert of his choice etc. yes, you may have to swallow your disgust at what the movie is portraying or the music he is listening to but on the positive side, your son will realize that watching a movie or going to a concert is no big deal for you and his rebellion will be moot since you are showing him that it has no effect on you. it may also open the door to communication between the two of you and perhaps if he sees you accepting his choices then he will be open to accepting yours.