Going off the Derech

What does your husband say? What does the rabbi say? The decision whether to call the police is not something to be asked from an internet board. For what is worth, I believe he will come home safe, later or tomorrow, and start again taking advantage of you, as long as you allow him, and I am afraid longer than that: now you (and he) have to fight against a habit. It has been weeks or months without him being held accountable for inadequate behaviour.

W.O.W I have not read the manual of twisted parenting so I don’t really know what was happening in your home. I also don’t know the protocol and procedure about calling the police. What happens there when you call the police? He is not really a missing child nor is he a runaway. So would the police help you?

I have avoided calling the police on kids in my neighborhood and called Hatzolah instead who helped to intervene especially when a child was drunk or high.

I dont believe in accepting unacceptable behavior, nor do I believe in not holding people accountable for their actions. I also don’t believe that he hates you, but I do believe that he is manipulating you. Going OTD is one thing being completely inconsiderate is another and they don’t necessarily have to go hand in hand. If you are going to follw TP you are going to have to believe in it 100% percent. I imagine that it must be much harder to do that when you are not part of the group, not able to hear the stories of the other parents and how they are coping, and not being able to speak with Avi face to face.

I would suggest that you calm down first and keep telling yourself that he is alive whether he is home or not. You are more angry with his chutzpah than you are concerned about him right now. So please take a couple of deep breaths and calm down.

I am a big believer in writing as I mentioned before. Since you can’t have a conversation with him, it might be beneficial to write him a letter. Let him know that you love him with all your heart and soul, and let him know that under all his anger you do believe he loves you too even though he is not showing it right now. Also let him know that you understand his pain and frustration and that he is at a crossroad in his life where he is confused. He is running away from what he feels caused him pain into the unknown because he is trying new things that are exciting to him but were foreign to him before.

Although he is confused, hurting, and exploring, he does not have any more of a right to hurt you or the rest of the family than those who hurt him. You are a family who love and care about him and when his friends move on and he finds new ones as the years go by, his family will not change, they will still be his family. The consant in his life, the ones he can always count on. And he is still a member of the family and always will be. Neither his pain, frustration nor confusion gives him the right to be inconsiderate, rude or offensive.

Staying out all night might seem cool to him, and if his intentions were to keep everyone else up worrying where he was, thinking that an Arab slashed his throat somewhere in an alley, then he accomplished his goal. If his intentions are to destroy his family while he finds what he is looking for then he should make that clear from the start so you can all have a family meeting and he can hear what everyone has to say about it. If his intentions are only to heal his wounds then he needs to find the time to speak to you and figure out a way that will give him the opportunity to do that without being inconsiderate, hurtful and destructive to the entire family while also explaining what kind of support he needs.

Whatever choices he chooses to make, he will have to live with the consequences that follow good or bad. Since he is making these choices on his own he will have no one to blame later on for bad choices or big mistakes so he needs to appreciate the power of choice and make hs choices wisely.

I would encourage any of the children who miss him and want to see him or speak to him to write to him as well.

Hatzlocha

So were angry because he made you worried, or because he didn’t care that he made you worried?

OK.

Do you think he stayed out all night specifically to make you angry, or even though it made you angry?

Well, I think it does make a difference which one it was.

If he was staying out despite that it made you angry, then it means his real purpose was to do whatever it was he was doing (or maybe to assert independence). In that case, he couldn’t tell you because you would get upset at him and forbid it.

If he was staying out specifically to make you angry, then he couldn’t tell you because not telling you was part of the whole point.

In any event, though, you are correct that it doesn’t really make a difference on your reaction. If the reason he isn’t telling you where he goes is because you will get upset at him, then certainly getting upset at him for not telling will not accomplish anything. If the reason he isn’t telling you is to get you upset, then certainly getting upset does not accomplish anything.

Then what happens if he tells you that he’s going to a dangerous place? what would you say? maybe it’s better not to know…

W.O.W., the point is that he should be considerate enough to let you know and hopefully he will feel badly if he lies. You really don’t know if he is telling you the truth or not, and what can you do about it. The best that you can hope for is to try and instill in him a need to still be considerate. So yes the best you can do, whether you predict that he will or wont, is to continue to ask him to be considerate.

So when he leaves ask him to “please call me later to touch base”. If he says “I don’t know where I will be”, say “it doesn’t matter call me from wherever”, if he says I don’t know when I will be home or if I’ll be home say “call me later before I go to sleep so I won’t worry, its the least you can do”. If the Chevra wants to stay in this yeshiva they probably wont be able to stay out all night and still go there. However, they can stay at each others homes and still go there.

write or wrong – We have been doing Twisted 9 weeks. My daughter is not coming back to the derech at this point but there are no more fighting or sleepless nights.

The house is very calm and back to normal. She is now very respectful of all – parents as well as the siblings. Am I happy?

This is a very hard pill to swallow but we see a very bright future. We have tried everything before Avi and it only backfired. Avi is very extreme but with very positive results.

Did you get his audio files? It is well worth listening to them.

At the support groups we all talk it out. Doing it on this forum will not resolve your issues. You need to sit face to face and talk to other people who are living the nightmare.

My daughter who was sick wrote a very inspiring book on her cancer ordeal. It may be worth your while to read it. I am sure it will give you chizik.

Ask the moderator for my email and I will send you the link to her book.

W.O.W., you just can’t judge or try to figure out what will get through to him or what won’t. You just have to try and since you are speaking at him instead of with him it is best to write him a note. A note he can read when he chooses and as often as he likes. Things might slip out in speech or heard incorrectly. A note can be read incorrectly true, but then it can be read again when one is in a different frame of mind. It can be read quickly or slowly. It can be read when one needs more support or less. Keep the notes and letter coming. Keep sending notes filled with love and support, but still write what your own perspective as well. As long as it is not about religion it is fine. Always speak about your love and how special he is to you. Always tell him that you love him no matter what, because he is part of your heart and soul, he is part and parcel of you and that can’t change no matter what choices he makes, and no matter what clothes he wears.

write or wrong – Last week we were zocha to be at a wedding from one of Avi’s group. It was amazing to say the least. The kid may not come back the way you vision it. He may wear a strimel or a kipa sruga but he will come back.

Always remember this needs to be done with both you and your husband otherwise you fail at it.

write or wrong – What made us contact Avi was that my daughter got to the point of hanging out with boys. She spends weekends with them.

Before Avi she left the house when we thought she was sleeping. Now we at least know where she is.

I wish I have answers but this gets worse before it gets better.

I have not read all 20 pages of this but I would like to add my opinion. I am a ger and recognize that the frum community is messed up. I don’t blame any OTD kids because it does not surprise me when a kid goes OTD. Seeing how rov frum people are I can’t understand why a kid would want to be frum. A kid is like a blank piece of paper and you can teach him anything, so if a love of Hashem and Torah is instilled in them from a young age and they see they have erlicher parents who do everything out of Love for Hashem and not just as a burden. A father who learns every extra second he has and who makes erlicher bruchos and not just a shuckel with the lips saying all 10 words in one breath, and talks about Hashem and a mother who dresses tzniusdik and not like rov “frum” women today with their long sheitelech and tight clothing with the skirt barely covering the knee. If I would have known more and had more experience with Frum people I would not had became a ger but now It is my belief in Hashem and Torah and wanting to do his rutzen that keeps me frum, not the frum community.

This is so true, it needs to be repeated. Children can tell a lie from a mile away. If you are honest, then your children will respect you. If not, how can you be surprised if they don’t? That is not to say that it is foolproof (and I don’t know specifics), but consider it a “segulah”.

Very well said.

gavra_at_work – Your are correct that Children can tell a lie from a mile away. That does not cause OTD. Something happened to the kid for this to happen.

I’m not saying that it did. I have no idea what happened. I do know that if the children see the parents only following the Torah outside the home for others to see, then they will have no reason to follow it both inside & outside.

No normal kid goes OTD.

Sheker or Scotsman, I’m not sure which. Yes there is a “reason”, but it could be as simple as the Rebbe telling the Bochur that “if you can’t learn Gemorah, you will be nothing”, and the child is broken, because it is hard. That is not an “abnormal” child (perhaps an abnormal Rebbe). It may be someone figuring out that the outside world DOES have what to offer (after being told from age 2 that they are all insects who are Mezaneh all day). That is not “abnormal”. I could go on and on.

WOW- did you ever hear of the school called A.C.E? maybe it would be good for your son… its a jewish school comprised of 16 boys and doesnt focus on judiasm but rather the person and builds the boy and the goal is for them to eventually come bak on the derech.

WOW- ok then i just happened to see a short video promoting it and i just thought it would be great for him… if your son is not answering your questions regarding how the new low pressure yeshiva is working out then maybe you should contact his rebbe or principle or someone inside the school to see if its working out. IMO i think he would be embarrased to admit to you that this schools fantastic and he really likes it and wants to keep shabbos from now on…