Going off the Derech

WOW,

I have been thinking about you and your son a lot. I wish that I had the right words to help or even to offer you chizuk, but I don’t feel qualified or experienced enough to do so. I will mention, however, two ideas that occurred to me:

You mention many times that your son refuses to see a therapist. I would like to suggest that you and your husband go instead. A qualified therapist should not only be able to serve as a source of chizuk to you, but should ideally be able to give you concrete suggestions for how to deal with your son. I know other parents who have done so when their child wouldn’t go to therapy and were abke to really help their child.

The second suggestion I have is to try using some of the communications methodologies of Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish in “How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk.” They really work well if you make this communication method fit with you and don’t sound “fake” with it. Also, they discuss giving your child genuine and specific compliments – not “wow your such an amazing kid. You’re awesome,” but things like “You’ve been keeping your room so organized and putting all of your laundry in the hamper…” Any of these types of compliments you can give your son will have a hashpaah on him and on his self image which needs to be rebuilt with genuine and true compliments.

As a child, whenever my mother said things like “Wow youre such an amazing piano player” (I wasn’t that great – ok maybe, not great) I wouldn’t buy it. Even when a teacher told me “You’re an express train headed to becoming a true bas yisroel,” all I could think of was every wrong thing I was doing that contradicted that compliment.

I suspect that like Aries has noted your son is really felling down on himself, and the more he does things he knows contradict the TOrah lifestyle, the worse he feels. Keep the love flowing – it’s definitely making an impact, and I truly think (and hope and pray) that your son will come back – perhaps stronger than before.

You and your family are in my heart and prayers. Keep strong!

WoW. Again, advice (at least sane advice) is not any of my 2.5 talents. A cursory glance at my pithy handiworks can attest to that. I’m here just to lend you a shoulder to cry on, to dry your tears, to try to comfort and be mechazek. It’s my humble belief that a healthy and relaxed, strong minded person would make a better decisions and take matters easier. And I’m here to try to lift you, however slightly, to be able to see a not so distant BRIGHTER future.

I’m not sure if our comments is what is needed. Tell us how it is working for you and anyone who doesn’t have useful help can save their comments. You are doing an amazing job and I have learned so much from all these exchanges. I have a son who is, B”H, not at risk hashgafically but many of the thoughts and feelings, and some of the abrasive behavior, that have been discussed between you and Aries and HtoH are very relevent. I am not one of his favorite people and am in that place that you speak of where my comments are considered intrusive and my lack of comments are considered lack of caring. I daven hard for you, and all the other moms, and I thank you all for sharing these struggles. As a member of the ‘peanut gallery’ though, I would rather learn than comment.

W.O.W., I feel your hot tears, believe me I do. Your son is pushing your buttons. He may be saying these things because he means it, or he may be saying these things because he is feeling you out about them. The piercing is bad but the tattoo is even worse.

On these things you can say “I know that you feel the choice is up to you, and I know that you feel that you can do whatever you want and you probably don’t really care how much we get hurt right now in the process, but I am doing my best to hold it together. If you choose to go that route I can’t promise you that I will not only have a broken heart you will break it into a million pieces and I don’t know if I would ever be able to recover. Don’t forget what a tattoo symbolizes in this generation to Jews!!! The Nazis tattooed numbers on to the arms of the Jews to keep track of them as if they were animals. Whenever WE see tattoos that is what WE are reminded of. It has no beauty or sense of meaning to us other than how the most evil of evil people humiliated, degraded, experimented on, tortured and annihilated our families, $6,000,0000 jews plus any other people that they felt didn’t live up to perfection which included gays, handicapped, gypsies, and others.”

W.O.W. don’t make it about the Torah and what it says about our bodies being on loan and not damaging it. Give him something he can relate to and think about. As far as sending him off to school. I highly doubt at this point it has anything to do with learning and he certainly doesn’t care to be in Yeshiva. The idea is to get away with this group of boys, so there really is no point. What is the point in having the school call you constantly that he did this, that and the other thing. Better that the boys should go without him.

Has he been asking you about it, or is it something he spoke to you about earlier?

W.O.W. at best I would recommend that you go down to the yeshiva and not only speak to the tosh yeshiva and administration about your dilemma, I would also knock on some doors in the vicinity of the yeshiva and hear what the neighbors have to say about the yeshiva and the kids that go there. If it is basically a babysitting service where the kids do what they want so the administration can collect the bucks and have parnasah from it, I would say, save your money and keep him home. On the other hand if the neighbors support the yeshiva and vouch for the sincerity of the hanhala, then you might have something to think about.

WOW I would meet him halfway, in other words. “I am doing laundry tomorrow, if you want me to do your laundry make sure you put what you want washed in the laundry room.”. “I am changing linen tomorrow, if you want me to change your linen you will have to be out of your bed by…, if not I will leave fresh linen on your bed and you can do it yourself”

kol hatchalot kashot. All beginnings are difficult, it definitely gets easier as you go, but you must take that first step. If you don’t buy him the jeans he will get them somewhere else and then what? If he’s going to wear them anyway you might as well use it to your advantage.

My son has not fully returned yet but he’s home, he’s happy, and part of the family again. I’m sure Hashem sees the tremendous strides we’ve made and is happy as well.

I can honestly say TP was a bigger Tikun for me than it was for my son. I have learned the TRUE meaning of Ahavat Chinam and what it really means to emulate Hashem. Tell your husband he’s not doing G-D any “favors” by alienating his son in the name of Frumkeit. G-D doesn’t need a defense attorney He wants to see his children loving their children not because of what they wear but because of who they are.

W.O.W. I don’t see how teling your son to put his laundry in the laundry room is not “loving” him, or telling him that you would be happy to change his linen if he is up, if not you will leave the fresh linen on his bed and he can do it when he is ready.

Why is that “NOT” loving him? Why is being a maid to him showing “love” is he 4 years old, incapable of taking care of himself? He is choosing to be independent and you are offering to take care of him. You should continue to tell him that you love him and you should continue to offer to do things for him, however, you do not need to “baby” him. He wants to be respected and treated as an adult, so why not? Does an adult need to be picked up after? Does an adult need to be spoon fed? He wants to choose his own clothes, he wants to stay out all night, right? OK, so then bring it up a couple of notches. Make him feel like an adult. He is going to go off to school on his own isn’t he? Do you think they are going to do his laundry for him? You are not doing him any favors. Teach him now how to do it for himself.

My condolensces on this enormous challenge. First and foremost you need your husband to be on the same page. Otherwise, you don’t stand a chance. I had this with my son who is now 19 and coming back. Rabbi Wallerstein’s yeshiva was mentioned, my son was in that environment and it was awful. edited

He went though about a girl a month for three years and now is finally settling down in a great place in Israel.

His father was a disaster always trying to put him back in “mainstream” yeshivas instead of staying the course in ones that catered to his needs.

I am sorry to be reminded of the churban story of the woman with the flour, first she wanted fine flour, there was none left so she wanted regular flour, etc. By the time she got used to the idea of grits, there was no food left.

Your husband has to come around that the “uniform” is the least of the heart of our legacy. We are after all rachmanim, bayshanim and gomlei chassadim and hopefully the first and the last will be overdosed on your son during this difficult time, by you, by your husband, by family, by neighbors, by community so your son can sift through his emotions and work out his issues.

I heard of the twisted parenting and some say it really works.

My feeling is that kids actually like to work for something and get it instead of it just being handed to them. I used to give my son extra allowance when he fixed things around the house, more allowance when he did it without being told, kids like him don’t like being told so let them “preempt you”.

There is a woman Mrs Belsky who lives in Israel who speaks all over, she had a son OTD and he returned and then passed away. She has a lot of “hindsight” that may benefit you and your husband in your situation. Hatzlacha, parenting is the most difficult job and you got a real star job with your son. Would love his hebrew name to add to my tefillos if you feel up to sharing. We’re rooting for you! 🙂

Hmmmmmm.

Avi Fishoff, according to Google, runs a “shelter” (the word comes up from Google and is not mine) for 15-21 years old, in Brooklyn.

Do those minors enter the institution voluntarily? If so, and given that the method appears to be difficult to implement correctly (I notice many posters are pointing out mistakes in what WOW does), perhaps the boy should be informed about this option and would be delighted to move there, to enjoy unconditional love and all the other benefits we’ve heard about and made us drool with envy at what our parents did not offer us (were they nasty? naive? fools?! or maybe they were not!), and at the same time allowing WOW and her husband to feel relieved, to know their son is in a safe and loving place, and to be able to enjoy a marriage relationship and a family life with their other children, both of which have somehow suffered.

Or are the kids in “home, sweet home” committed there by their families against their wishes and/or by child protection services? Perhaps “here to help”, “Speaker”, and the other fans of the method, will take a minute to elucidate and to explain us. At this point I am really curious. The “guarantee” that the “method” undoubtedly works “if implemented correctly” is definitely a conversation point.

it takes time get accustomed. Let me reassure you, however, that when done correctly it is guaranteed to have positive results. The faster you get with the program the faster you will see these results.

PS What does it mean to be a “member” of “Twisted”? Is that an association? Is there documentation which is publicly available? We would like to know more.

WOW, everything depends on how you do it. If you do it in a way that is condescending then yes he might feel that way, if you do it in a way that makes him feel like an adult then he won’t. For instance. You said he is set on going away to this school. So the right thing to do is teach him how to manage on his on while he is there.

“if you are sure you want to go away to this school you will have to learn some survival skills and how to take care of yourself because they do not provide maid service. So when you gather your laundry I will meet you in the laundry room and show you how to do it yourself.”

Dear Aries I may very well be off-base, however, I have not insulted or slandered anyone: I have asked a question. Are the minors staying voluntarily and can they leave at any time, or are they institutionalized? Are they free to behave as they please according to the “unconditional love” attitude which is demanded from WOW, or are there rules in place, and if so, what happens to those who defy them? Are the minors in charge of their parents who retain rights and obligations and who make any and all decisions during their guest stay, or are they charges of the residential community according to NY and federal secular law? I am not saying this or that option is a bad thing, nor am I denying that those services are necessary for some minors: they are, no different than hospitals and surgeries and chemoterapy are necessary and are tremendous mitzvot. However, it seems appropriate that we all should be aware of the sort of services being suggested; and whether these services are suitable to a particular boy is a legitimate question, if you don’t mind. Especially given that I had the impression WOW is not interested in having her young son admitted into such an institution. Which for what is worth, I fully support.

In addition, I find there is something dissonant about the TP supporters demanding from WOW she must be “accepting” of her son and any behaviour of his, and that she must express him unconditional love allowing him to leave the house whenever he pleases without even saying where he goes, to get up whenever he pleases, to wear whatever he pleases, to drink liquor and smoke cigarettes to his liking, and so on – and some have reprimanded WOW for having reacted in the obvious way to the stupid t-shirt – I would find it surprising if this advice is confirmed to come from people who are running a residential community, where I am not quite sure children are remotely allowed a shadow of that. But, of course, may be I am wrong, so please dispel our misconceptions. With facts, not with refusal to answer.

Finally, nobody can guarantee anything. We can’t even guarantee our lifespan. There is no magic solution: there are many educational approaches, some work for some children and other work for other children, and we have to teach each child according to their inclination. It is ironical and saddening that the very approach which supposedly accepts every kid no matter what they do – thus implying and leading us to believe it allows every child to be themselves and find their true path in life – treats them as xerox copies and treats their parents as fools whose insight is consistently dismissed and who are told to follow blindly and without asking questions a certain “easy and simple method”.

write or wrong – You are welcome. The invite is long standing 🙂

write or wrong – Avi has hundreds of hours worth of recordings. It is important that you listen to them so you will hear first hand as to what other parents are dealing with and their progress. Being part of the groups is a nechuma on its own.

If Avi is unable to email it, he can put them on a USB player and you can make arrangments to get it.

write or wrong – Avi never speaks to the kid – only to the parents. For a kid to go OTD something happened, School / Home … He is angry – the best thing is for him to have his parents as best friends.

I am not good in typing but Avi and his groups has helped us so so much.

He needs to know from you and your husband that you will cry when he goes to Yeshiva – He needs to know that you will miss him…. and nothing that he ever does will change the love you have for him will ever change.

Home Sweet Home has nothing to do with Twisted. This is Avi’s project and none of our kids go there.

WD, it saddens me that you would find a need to make negative comments on this thread. This thread, from the get go has basically been a conversation between one poster who asked for help, and those who have offered assistance. Why you felt the need to comment on the general issue just to throw your hat in the ring when this entire thread has nothing to do with the debate on the issue is questionable. Was it your intent to pour salt on an already open wound?

Did you not bother to read any part of this thread, the history between the parents and child? What exactly is the point of your very sound advice here aside from letting us all know you are sick of this topic? You did have the choice of skipping it if you are tired of the subject, you did not have to get involved at all.