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Dear WOW, I have been following your thread since you started it and have not chimed in because I have nothing to add that other posters have not said. I have noticed some posters who come across very strongly who feel they know what is causing your son’s issues or how to go about solving them and they try to force you to do the things they think will solve the issue. As an observer I would like to tell you that no one here sees your son and knows anything about him besides what you post. You sound like an amazing mother and a baalas seichel. Listen to any ideas that sound like they may help and sound like they are applicable to your son, but don’t let these other people convince you to do things that you don’t feel are right or think is necessary. Speak to those who know you and your son and let them advise you. Don’t diagnose your son or make expensive trips based on a chat room. Hatzlocha Rabba.
W.O.W., as an adult, unlike a child, we have the ability to overcome loss in a mature way. Our minds are developed and we go through the grieving process. There are seven steps of grieving that we as adults follow. Not all of us follow it in the same order but basically it is pretty much text book. Not all of us manage to do it in the same time frame unfortunately and some of us take longer than others because some of us are more sensitive, had a stronger relationship with our own particular loved one than others, or are just plain subject to different variables and everyone grieves in their own way. But eventually we get to the point where life goes on and we realize that we have to accept the unacceptable and we are comforted by Hashem and his goodness and our emunah and bitachon return and with it a huge relief and comfort.
This of course is different than what a child goes through in this parsha because dying is a part of living. It is part of the cycle of life and it can be expected. Unfortunately what our children go through with the hypocrisy that they are exposed to is not to be expected, should never be expected and they should never be exposed to it. Ze lo b’derech hateva. It is almost l’havdil like losing a child. Can a parent ever c”v get over losing a child? Can a child ever get over having the one thing they were sure about be ripped out from right under their feet? A Rosh Yeshiva who was supposed to make them “lek Honik” in regard to yiddishkeit made them feel like they were swallowing bitter herbs. A Rosh Yeshiva who was supposed to guide the entire hanhallah in caressing a talmid’s cheek with a gut vort and encouragement, instead slapped him across the face until it burned with humiliation.
Can you imagine a child davening each morning with Kavana that the Rosh Yeshiva would love him and treat him with kindness, warmth and generosity so the other talmidim would follow his lead? Only to be humiliated by the Rosh and then have the children taunt him over and over again? That is a living nightmare. This is the “HEAD”, who gets all the kovod and honors. Who everyone respects. In the yeshiva and community he is the head honcho, “THE” authority, almost G-d like. Isn’t he “tzelem elokim”. He is as close to G-d as a child can imagine at that age. And instead of being the kind, loving and generous G-d, he is mean, disrespectful and humiliating. Everything that goes against Torah guidelines and principals. HE is a hypocrite as is everything he represents. And Hashem himself is allowing this to happen, Hashem does not answer his prayers and does not do anything to stop this from happening to him. He is in this alone without any support or back-up. Where is his backup? Who is there to rescue him or to guide him through his trouble. Where is even one Rav to sit with him and tell him it will be ok, the R”Y is wrong, he will help him through this, Hashem has sent him as a sheliach to guide him to a better situation? Where was his lifeline?
W.O.W. can you understand why he lost his faith? Why he is lost?
Oomis, thanks for the shout out. I haven’t looked back for many months. I took a peek and saw this thread. I thought if I could be of any help I should try.
Dear YW Moderator-18
You are correct that I only know what is being posted, but based on these fairly detailed posts (hundreds of them mind you) w.o.w.’s descriptions match almost exactly my own situation and the dozens of other parents that I have been in direct contact with for over a year. This OTD crisis is no secret, and if I know of a PROVEN VERY SUCCESSFUL method of helping this person I think I should make my point as strongly as possible. A trip to NY is not nearly as “expensive” as the pain and suffering these people are going through.
I can only lead you to the water; I realize, however, that I cannot make you drink.
There is another option, but I need to be able to send w.o.w. a 20mb file. your help with this would be appreciated.
Thank you 18. You just said what I was thinking for weeks.
Some poeple think they absolutely have to impose their advice onto others. Here in the CR and IRL.
Furthermore, I am taking this very seriously and w.o.w. seems to be as well; lets not minimize it to mere “chatter”. I have offered to take this to a better venue, but that is proving to be a bit difficult due to the privacy rules (completely understandable).
w.o.w. – I honestly don’t know how to proceed I am still “here to help”. But after careful consideration and advice from Avi Fishoff himself, continuing in this manner is not going to be productive. The next best option is to send you some info and we can take it from there. Hopefully the Mod can give us some direction. 🙂
wow you are very strong, you are much stronger than you think, as proven by the fact you are handling the situation alright, after three months of emotional roller coaster. Be hatzlacha and be aware that most of us, in your shoes, would have been a pathetic failure. I know you feel you aren’t dealing well with the situation and possibly you feel like a failure, but this is simply untrue, and don’t allow anyone to insinuate that (including yourself). For incomprehensible reasons your son is going through a difficult time, which we all hope it gets finished after a while and without leaving permanent scars. But whatever the reason, that has nothing to do with you and your husband, as proven by his siblings, who no doubt also encountered “imperfect” role models (did we not all meet such people?) and yet did not react in the same way. Sometimes life events are impossible to understand, so, stop beating yourself up, that does no good to your son, to the rest of your family, nor to you.
I would suggest putting a “filter” on your computer. My computers have k-9 protection on it. I’ts very good and you can choose what you want to be done on your computer and what you want a password on.
Also, i would try and focus on things that SHOULDN’T be done before the things that SHOULD be done.
For example: Don’t push him go to school, learn or daven before he stops with the music or movies or being michalel shabbos. Cuz it won’t happen that way.
If he doesn’t like talking to adults, have him speak with people his age. But don’t tell him they are gona help him…
Maybe he would like to play/help with a little kid. Or take care of someone’s pet…
I think the first step, if possible, would be to get him away from his harmful friends and find some better ones.
Good luck!
W.OW, please be moichel me, I didn’t mean for you to cry. And please don’t blame yourselves, like I said before you can’t go backwards only forwards. You did what you thought was best at the time. How could you possibly have known what he wasn’t truly sharing with you? That’s all water under the bridge. I only pointed this out to you so you would have a deeper understanding of life from his perspective and his point of view.
When he says things to you or does things, please do your utmost NOT to take them personally. They are not designed to hurt you, he is only doing what he thinks makes him feel better. Without knowing the depth of his pain and suffering how could you possibly understand that? When your other kids question his actions you can honestly say he must be treated like a “choleh”. Because he is going through a tremendous nisayon right now and unfortunately he feels like his emuna and bitachon was stolen from him. We can’t even imagine no never even know what it feels like to lose one’s emunah and bitachon, how frightening that must be. So scary that he doesnt want to talk about it or even face it just run away from it. He is going to make a lot of mistakes because without bitachon he doesn’t know or believe that Hashem loves him and is always by his side to help him. He feels alone and that is why he is searching for something that he himself does not know what it is. Eventually, and we don’t know how long it will take, he will realize that Hashem never left his side and watched over him through his entire journey. But until he comes to that realization through his own journey, we will have to be loving and patient so that we don’t push him into the arms of the goyim and into dangerous situations. We have to be the best loving, kind, simchadik, caring, yiddin and role models we can be for him and his friends so that maybe we can help shorten the dark journey they are on and they can find that what they are searching for was inside them all along.
W.O.W., he is your son no matter what, no matter how hard it gets, whether he has girlfriends and even if he eats treif, no matter how low he falls he is still your baby, your gift from Hashem, so never give up on him. That is your nisayon as a parent. Hashem did not give warranties or guaranties when he gave us these special gifts. What Hashem did give us is forgiveness and the ability to do teshuva. Did Hashem ever give up on us his children? Did he ever turn his backs on us and say “gee, how many chances do these stupid kids think I will give them? I’m g-d, they can’t fool me, who do they think they are kidding? Seriously, I should just give up on them and start from scratch.”.
Well obviously, our society has fallen pretty low on the morals and value scale. Many of us wouldn’t blame g-d if he felt that way, but WE are very lucky, we get to do teshuva every day and try again. This is our ultimate role model in parenting. Never give up on your children, the tomorrow will come for forgiveness and healing. If there is a chance that the sun will come up, there is a chance for teshuva, reconciliation, forgiveness, reconnection, etc.
So W.O.W. we daven to Hashem to help us through these hard times, to keep our pained children safe, and that he rebuild his connection with our child very soon. Then we look for a support system because no one can go through this alone without losing their mind. Then we try to keep the family together and move forward as normally or next to normal as we can.
w.o.w. – sorry for having to come to a halt, but what I’m offering you is more than a theory or simple advice. It is a method that requires complete concentration and strict adherence. It cannot and will not work in an environment where every other post takes you out of focus or waters you down.
Even the MODERATOR completely doused my words and utterly reduced months of sincere outpouring of feelings to “chat room” bantering. Which is basically what this is and exactly why this won’t work.
Believe me, I would LOVE to help you but this is definitely not the place.
My advice to you is to contact Avi Fishoff, it can’t be that difficult to reach him. He CAN save your life and your son’s life.
HTH, I contacted Avi to ask him if he is monitoring or keeping up with this thread in the CR and so far have not received an answer. I have reserved comment up till now but I do have something to say.
As a parent you too have gone through a very difficult parsha and found TP a tremendous nechama. It worked for you or is working for you, you have not said where you are holding. At any rate you are coming on way too strong with both guns loaded forgetting that you are speaking to a human being in pain and not a mannequin. Understandably, this can happen when you are not speaking to someone face to face and you can see their facial expressions, body language and general reactions to your comments.
One thing that you have forgotten and is a major component when dealing with anyone children included is “compassion”. You are basically yelling at this poor woman and “demanding” that she follow what you are “telling” her to do or her son will fail. You are “ordering” her to concentrate only on what YOU, a student of the system, tell her and block out all other advice whether other advice comes from legitimate sources or not and whether others are offering her legitimate support or not. Basically you are bulldozing her or coming at her like a battering ram, not unlike what the kids themselves feel in the parsha. So much so that the Moderator himself felt the need to say something.
It is very, very obvious that you are sincere and that you want to help here, you want to help her help her child as much as you are helping your child. But you need to understand “different strokes for different folks”. Just as you had to choose which method you would use for your child, so does she have to choose and one more thing. YOU are NOT the originator of the program and maybe you are NOT explaining it appropriately or missing that important component which is the compassion and understanding one needs to show the parents as well. IT IS NOT just about the kids. The parents are also in pain here and the parents need to understand how to separate their pain from their children’s pain in addition to what is happening to their children in order to help them.
Not every parent knows how to love unconditionally. Yes, that is true. Some parents need to be taught. I am not saying c”v that is the case here, but I am just using that as an example why you can’t come on so strong with people and why things need to be laid out and explained. Not every parent can give unconditionally, but when they understand why the child is acting the way they are it makes it easier to do it. Just by yelling at a parent that your child is a choleh, that doesn’t make it work for them. You learn to crawl before you walk and then you run. Things happen in steps and also in bits and pieces.
HTH, your intentions and sincerity are quite admirable but you are a parent in pain that wants to help other parents in pain but you can’t just share your medication. You first have to “listen to understand” the family history, show compassion, understand the situation, find the source of the illness then diagnose it before you can prescribe the medication and therapy.
You can’t tell someone else what to do but you can tell them what worked for you and how and why it worked and I believe that makes all the difference. I respect Avi tremendously as he is a very sincere and compassionate person. I hope you did not to offense to anything that I have written because it is not my intention and I do hope that you continue to help W.O.W by explaining to her how this method is working for you and your family.
– you mentioned that your lechatchilah for your son was that he should be a rebbe – is he intellectually inclined? statistically many kids at risk are not intellectually inclined and therefore not cut out for the very intellectually driven jewish frum school curriculum. this does not mean that there is anything wrong with the kids, it just means as our local headmaster says – schools are not designed for kids. especially if you would have liked him to be a rebbe which means he is the top learner then this is pressure to be intellectual
– have you asked your parents for advice?
pcoz, please show me where you found these statistics. I don’t believe this for one minute. There is nothing intellectually wrong with these kids, adaraba I would say they are highly intelligent and that is why they are so hurt by the hypocrisy they see. They are too intelligent to be fooled by it and that is also why they are hurt by it.
why are you insulting the frum olam – who says the issue has anything to do with hypocrisy???
Pcoz, why are you here? Why are you insulting these kids and the parents who are in obvious pain? Do you know anything at all about this parsha? Again I ask you to back up your statement or stop adding salt to open wounds with hurtful and insulting garbage.
If you had any knowledge on this subject what so ever you would know that it all boils down to the hypocrisy!
Pcoz, this particular thread is not one for discussing why kids go OTD. If you are looking for a debate you won’t find it here. This thread is about helping this particular OP and giving her the support she needs. If you are not capable of doing that or understanding how important it is right now for the OP to have that kind of support then please at least understand the difference between this thread and others in the past which discussed this issue.
w.o.w, aries, and all others concerned ESPECIALLY THE MODERATOR –
I just got off the phone with Avi Fishoff. He has not received any messages from anyone and is looking forward to helping anyone who needs it, whether in person by email or by phone.
His contact information is available through MASK which is easily accessible.
He does not charge for his services so there should be no hesitation to avail yourselves of them.
Moderator – Avi Fishoff has authorized you to give out his Email address and cell phone number to those in need; Namely, write or wrong, mom12 and others who may have expressed the need for his services.
I COPIED AND PASTED SO WOW GOT THE INFO AS YOU TYPED IT.
IF ANYONE NEEDS CONTACT INFO FOR AVI FISHOFF, PLEASE CONTACT YWN, AND WE WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.
dear WOW I am very sorry about what you write us. I think PCOZ is giving very sound advice, what do your parents and parents-in-law say? Can they come to your home for a few weeks? If not, can you invite someone at your home for a few weeks? Friends visiting Israel? You could even offer them to enjoy your son’s bed, say, for the time slot 22-7. I know you don’t feel like laughing, but try to see the comic side. Depression is unhelpful, try not to add it to a situation which is overwhelming in itself.
And hey, you don’t need your son’s permission to laugh.
As for your previous message — no, you are the strong one and the one who are going through it. We only talk. Yes we have no doubt been through troubles, problems and challenges, each person did, but e.g. I myself never have experienced anything like what you describe.
HTH, I just sent another email to Avi using another one of his email addresses. I forwarded the original to him. I will let you know when he answers.
In the mean time, W.O.W. your son is displaying typical depressive behavior, sleeping all day and functioning at night. His unacceptable comments are probably prompted by substances that he either ingested or inhaled. Either which has effected his brain and common sense. He cannot think straight and differentiate between right and wrong and is speaking “stupid speech” some of which obviously he will be sorry for later. He is neither logical or believable at this time he is just speaking junk. Do you really think that he would chas v’shalom want you to die? Could you imagine how much pain he would be in if the only people he can truly count on in this world were gone????? Do you think he himself would want to live another day if he didn’t have you there to catch him if he fell?
When your son returns from an all nighter what you see is really not your son, it is the shell of your son with the Yetzer hora controlling him and speaking for him. If he could speak for himself he would say “stay away from me so you won’t get hurt from me” but he can’t because he is NOT in control of himself or of his own actions. I know it looks like him, I know the words he speaks really hurt badly, but it is NOT him who is saying these things, it is the yetzer horah in him that wants you to turn your back on him. Try to picture it in your head almost like a “dibuk” took over your child. While you are fighting for your child’s neshoma there is a dibuk within taking control of him, making him do these horrible things and say these terribly hurtful things. Turn your back on this dibuk and walk away. Cry where he can’t see it. Take out your tehillim and get comfort from whichever source consoles you, but don’t by any means give in to this dibuk and yetzer horah.
Of course you don’t reward unacceptable behavior and you don’t have to accept it,but you don’t have to get into a battle of words or anything else with someone who is in no state to comprehend anything you say or how you feel. Doing so would be as useless as having a conversation with a wall. The only time you can attempt to speak to him is before he goes out, never when he returns.
Daniela, now is not the time for company, not even grandparents. There is no way to know how he will react to them and there is no reason to expose them to his hurtful comments and behaviors. W.O.W. and her husband are under enough pressure and stress without the added stress of having their parents around. As you said you have not been through the parsha and although you are truly trying to help and your heart is aching to be able to offer something to heal this broken heart, Just being here and letting W.O.W how much you care is really nechama in itself.
write or wrong- im sorry for what you, your family, and your son must be going through. honestly i think the first step is to go to a rav and ask the rav if he suggests a therapist. many times there are deeper things behind a child going off and many times its just out of confusion. but none of us really know because we dont know your child. a rav will be able to help you decide where to go from here and how to approach your son. all of us who are replying are just giving our own personal advice while a rav will be able to guide you towards the decisions that are best in your scenerio.
W.O.W. B”H, I am so happy to hear that.
See…. I told you LOL 🙂
Hatzlacha Rabba
If this is the only good thing that came out of the CR, Dayeinu!
WoW (I happen to think you’re always right)
You can always count on me. I can dispense some of my sagacious, sought-after advice. Here to serve you 21.5/6 (gotta sleep some time to keep those gears intact)
Keep it up. WE’RE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU!! With our (yours’ and our’s) tefillos, and endurance, you WILL ??”? succeed!!
I will do my best to check in as often as possible B’N. Thanks 🙂
1- Someone highly experienced in this field told me he’s never seen a guy who on good terms with both his parents and didn’t eventually return.
2- Helping him out with his gashmius and not his ruchnius is proven to help.
Has anyone entertained the possibility that maybe the son is reading all of this and staying ahead of the parents? If I were him its what I would do.
crisisoftheweek – yes, actually, that probably has occurred to others besides for me. He can use the computer, he can see the history. I still don’t think there’s any major “edge” gained with that – it’s not like this is a law discussion.
WOW (& Aries) – there is one point being made which I believe is flawed from the faith perspective. His RY was chosen for him by Hashem; we do not believe in accidents. If any person ever wronged him in his life (and all of us being human, we all have wronged and been wronged), we need to understand that it is part of Hashem’s plan. Some of us grow close to Hashem from His chessed, and some from His gevurah. We choose how to react to the chessed and gevurah shown to us in the course of our lives. Hashem orchestrates our lives so that we will have opportunities to grow close to Him, and may we all be zocheh that these opportunities should always make us stronger.
I am not letting the RY off the hook – but it’s not our job to go around beating up ourselves or others for making our lives imperfect. The realistic perspective that we cannot heal a child’s virus should be the same realism that tells us that our children will be hurt by people and events in their lives and all our love cannot keep that from happening – we can just hope that it will cushion them, and we can daven that they be healthy in body, mind and spirit.
Further, I once heard (although I would really like to know the m’kor for this, it resonated as true and from the perspective of emunah, it “clicked”) that the neshamah chooses its family. If he actually chose you to be his parents, that means he knows you are the best people to help his neshamah achieve its goals.
May you be zocheh to see achievements with your own eyes soon.
I would love to get a copy of the manual on Twisted Parenting but cannot locate a way to access the information. How can I get a copy of this document
WoW, I know you’re not getting to read this anytime soon, I just found some time to write.
No – I’m not dispensing any unwanted, uncalled-for advice, direction, or knowledge of any sort. (I’m afraid it’s not something for any sane person). Me? I’m here for a shoulder, maybe a good word, a boost, that can strengthen and fortify you with kochos you need at this time.
Yes, I did have you (Hashem knows who you are) in mind in my Tefillah. I’m sure many others here viewing and sharing with your saga, are also davening for you.
???? ???? ???? ???, it’s in your nature to build (or in this case rebuild). You will succeed ????? ???. Bring HaShem into you your home, mention Him constantly – ??? ?’ ???? ??????!!
Again – we’re ALL cheering and rooting for you. ??? ????!!
Hi.
I dint get in very often.. and I realized there are people with more experience helpng out. so I sit on the sidelines and read.
I wouldnt mind getting a copy of TP emailed to me.
I have a generic email address. whicha also does not have my real name.
May i post?
no, sorry.
Hello WOW,
I am still following this thread, suffering with each of your posts. Please don’t be upset with me, but I will once again broach the topic of bipolar disorder and the great possibility that your son is suffering from it (or at least some form of a mood disorder requiring medication).
You brought up in the past that since your son never had a manic episode, he does not qualify for a diagnosis of bipolar disorder (based on the DSM IV). There is something critical you need to undersand. Only in the past several years has bipolar disorder been discovered to exist in children and teenagers. Prior to that, it was thought to exist only in adults. The DSM IV, which has yet to be updated, is providing the ADULT PRESENTATION of the disorder which often looks a lot different than the teenage version, hence many teenagers “dont qualify” for the diagnosis. Your son does not need to have a manic episode to qualify for this diagnosis. His chronic irritability, destructive rages, and the various other behaviours are all part of the pediatric bipolar picture.
I know its hard to imagine, but the solution, at least to a very large extent, may be sitting on the shelf of your local pharmacy. The situation has gotten so grave that he is now wishing death upon himself and his parents. What can be more convincing that this poor child is imprisoned within his illness?
You once told me “if there was a pill that could fix my son I would stuff his closet with it”. How do you know that pill does not exist? Have you tried any? Please keep in mind that I am referring to mood stabilizing meds, not anti-depressants or stimulants which can make matters worse.
After reading your posts, I am thoroughly convinced that there is great merit to my position. Not that I am 100% convinced that he’s bipolar, just that there is a good chance that he is.
WOW–
I am not getting paid a salary or commission for these posts. Obviously I am coming on strong (as MODERATOR 18 noted). Ask youself; what on earth does this person want from me? Why won’t he take NO for an answer? Why does he persist? Why won’t he drop it? There are two possible answers to those questions. Either I’m the controlling, obsessive type, or I know something you don’t. What if I know something you don’t WOW? The very fact that I have come on strong, persisted with zeal, and spent time writing despite your rejecting my position time and again should alert you to the possibility that I’m privvy to information that I have and you need.
It pains me that the solution to your problem may be closer than you think, but still gets disregarded. Maybe, just maybe, what I am saying has truth to it?
I’m sure you’ve heard the famous mythical mashal of the man who was drowning who cried out to Hashem “please save me!”…a few moments later someone on the shore threw him a life jacket. The drowning man refused claiming “no, no Hashem will save me!”…then a boat came to rescue him, but the man again refused citing the same line of reasoning. Finally a helicopter came, but the man persisted that Hashem will save him. Eventually he drowned. He came before Hashem and humbley asked “Dear Hashem, I had such faith in your ability to save me, why did you let me down?” Hashem replied “Let you down?? I sent you a life jacket, a boat and a helicopter but you refused each time. What could I have done further?’
Is it possible that the information I am providing you is that which you have been praying for all this time? What if what I am telling you is right? You can’t afford to dismiss what might very well be the truth.
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