Going off the Derech

I believe that there can be some negotiation with the computer. It does not have to be all or nothing. Is he sharing his android with you? Do YOU get to use it at will? If not I don’t see any reason to hand over your personal item for him to use at his beck and call either.

So from a coaching perspective I would use negotiations. ” I understand that you want to use MY personal computer. I also understand that your new “device” is very important to you. My computer is as important to me as your device is to you. I am no more comfortable just handing it over to you than you would be handing over your personal device to me or any other member of the family, so how do we bridge this gap? What can you do to make me feel more comfortable about this? What solution can we both come up with that would work for both of us?”.

He needs your cooperation. He needs your computer. Let him think about it. In the end he will get what he needs, but let’s see if he can think his way through it instead of just demand it. Let’s see if he can come up with a solution/negotiation to make it work. You don’t have to be enemies.

The best solution is if you allow him to use it in the kitchen, for an hour or two at a time so he doesn’t usurp it and that he recognizes YOUR need to use your own device. Don’t minimize your own need. It is not up to him to decide whether or not you yourself need it or how much you need it.

Let him know your concerns, your own need for privacy and therefore he can’t take it into his room, because you have things on the computer that are not his business no matter how neutral or pareve it is it still is not his business. Just as he has a need for respect and privacy so do you and you don’t want that line crossed. On the other hand you can agree not to watch over his shoulder or comment on what he is doing as long as it doesn’t harm the computer itself. He should also agree not to do anything illegal where you can get blamed and be shut down and also remove anything he downloads so it doesn’t use up the space on the computer and slow it down. You should also agree that he must only download from safe sites and that you have an updated virus protector on the computer that he must also check to see it is up to date and running before he downloads anything.

In addition if he downloads anything that will make unwanted or questionable pop ups appear he will lose the privilege of he computer.

This really needs to be a serious discussion and negotiation. You really have to make a specific written agreement with him including the consequences making it very clear that if he chooses to break the agreement ( don’t use the word rules) then he will choose to lose the privilege. Be sure to reiterate that if he lent you his android under the same conditions and he saw it doing funny things after he specifically told you what not to do, he would not want to let you use it again. After all you love music don’t you? Wouldn’t it be nice to sit down in the kitchen for twenty minutes with your feet up and your eyes closed just listening to your music plugged into your ears?

Why can’t he download from his own android, doesn’t he have Internet ?

Write or wrong, I am wondering if he is communicating with girls on his android.

Ima, why should that be a concern at this point?

Wow, knowing his history and understanding his need to belong and even to be looked up to, it is very difficult to advise you to deny that to him. On the other hand helping him feel important and even succeeding at this small level might be something to consider. You will not stop him from hanging out with this chevra. You can’t choose his friends for him at this stage, so how can you help him and guide him? Sabatoging his mission will not help either one of you, he will find a way to make it happen without your help. So what can you do to form some kind of alliance with him?

Again I would suggest some form of negotiation for the use of your personal computer. Make an agreement of some kind, either in regard to where he can use it or how he can use it. For instance, he can use it only if he asks you and only if he tells you what he is using it for, again explaining that it is just as important to you as his android is to him. Negotiate with him and come to an agreement.

Personally, in my humble opinion, I feel that it would be the best compromise and option. I dont see it as you helping him being a big shot with his friends, just as you and your son working an issue out together. Especially since he is not downloading anything to your computer and is just using it like an extension chord. But still I would suggest that you maintain an anti virus program because the files are being transferred through your computer, meaning your computer is reading them, therefore you must take very precaution to protect your computer.

w.o.w. – I spoke with Avi and we came up with a possible solution but you need to contact me directly. I’m not sure how to go about that I guess we need the mods to advise.

Twisted Parenting needs to be administered in a very specific way and therefore needs to be explained that way as well. As mentioned here before, the initial visit with Avi Fishoff could be up to 12 HOURS! Then there are many follow ups and groups…etc. Giving you bits and pieces with constant interruptions, not to mention the time zone difference, is just not giving the method a fair chance to work.

We have a possible good solution though if I can get your direct email.

Others will be considered on a case by case basis if they would like. If anyone else is interested they can post here.

WOW, HTH and I are coming from different perspectives. I have never sat in on these sessions with Avi, but I do respect him. HTH believes that you should not be getting advice from two different sources and that you should try this program with full commitment and concentration without any distraction from me and see if it works for you.

In all honesty I will tell you to do whatever you think will work for you and your child. I promise you that even though you can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel parents do survive the parsha and come out on the other side. I don’t know how you would get hold of HTH but I can tell you that you can google Avi Fishoff to find his number, google Twisted Parenting, or Home Sweet Home and somehow you will get to him. Let us know what you choose to do because I don’t normally comed to the coffee room anymore. However if you need be to check in here I will.

WOW, in that case I am here for you for as long as the moderators will allow this thread to continue.

If your short term goal is to get your son away from the chevra and back on the derech, I’m afraid I don’t have any tricks in my bag that would help you. As a long term goal it can be achieved but it will be something he will come by on his own or more realistically with the help of other shelichim.

This might work in genaral for kids that are going off:

These kids in there eyes they are not doing anything wrong all they want is to be happy in life.

Every child at risk means i dont understand why we cant simply enjoy life?? why do i need all this rules for??? if the child does not recieve a very very clear answer which makes alot of sense to him he will always remain at risk no matter what approach you take with him. at the end of the day he wants to enjoy life and if yiddishkeit is not enjoyble then why practice yiddishkeit.

The job of anyone who wants to help another person to be erlich is simply to convince him why judiasm is an enjoyble way of life.

The mindset should be he is doing what he is doing simply because he wants to enjoy his day and does not understand what enjoyment really is.

The best way for a child to realize that yiddishkeit is actually a happy way of life is by seeing the parents enjoying yiddishkeit. Children thrive when they see their parents have a relationship to hashem in a very normal, practical and regular way.

It is best to discuss with children in early childhood that the world has a lot to offer and to be very specific according to age appropriate and then to explain in detail and in depth why it does not compare to judiasm for example to doing chesed or to enjoy a deep discussion in gamoro.

Apologies, I was away from the computer.

I wish to clarify I was not suggesting a correctional facility, which I personally think it’s not a place to send our loved ones to (but which, unfortunately, law enforcement does send people to, and not always for valid reasons). I was suggesting a normal environment, like real life. My clothing does not magically iron itself, the dishwasher / house helper / computer etc. are very nice but come with bills attached, and if I were to disrespect someone, I would have to deal with the obvious consequences. The boy’s attitude is a problem regardless if he’s in yeshiva, in college, in business, or anywhere else. He needs someone, forgive me for saying it, to finally let him know that he is not the center of the universe, nor is he the top of the universe that no one may dare to express displeasure to. But I suppose it’s moot now. We should all wish the best to him now that he left home, and he is an underage whose cash will soon run out. My thoughts are especially with you wow who must be heartbroken beyond belief. I hope something good comes out of this tremendous difficulty you are going through. Please, see a good lawyer and tell him the story and ask for advice. Right now the priority is no longer mussar, it is protecting both him and your family – as you know very well, in israel certain services and agencies only wait for pretexts, and as soon as he gets recorded by any system – document check for security reasons, say – as an underage who left home, your family may be targeted as problematic. I hope nothing happens, that he just stays away for a few days and then returns home a different and better person. It will give him security to be on his own, and his “friends” can probably say to him what he would never accept being told by you and they might do so – let us try to see the good in everything. Be strong please, for yourself and everyone.

WOW, did he mean that he can’t be religious because of you (something you did) or he can’t be religious because of you, meaning for you, if he doesn’t feel it for himself.

One thing I want to make perfectly clear. The home and the school are a partnership in the chinuch, nurturing and success of our children. If there is dysfunction in either the home or the school or they are NOT working in conjunction or are on the same page the children will know it and problems will arise. So when the family might love the child unconditionally but they don’t feel that love from their home away from home, the place that they spend most of their waking hours in, there is a huge problem. If the child does not feel safe, happy, nurtured but on the contrary feels humiliated, picked on, disliked, or otherwise sees hypocrisy and their role models are acting in opposition of what they are teaching there are going to be problems, huge problems.

Some children will react with just exaggerated behavior, not quite the “anov” yid they should be. Those are usually the kids who were not personally targeted. But those who were in the eye of the storm so to speak, or were the target of the negative attention and who were pained and burnt by it and carry the burden will react much differently, much harsher.

Think about it, the mechanchim who are supposed to be the greatest role models for our children, who display less than appropriate behavior make children feel that the religion is not real. And just like this mechanech and the administration who choose to allow him to continue “choose” which mitzvos they will follow or not, the kids feel that they too can “choose” what they will do or not, that the religion is NOT as serious as they were taught it was. That is when it all begins to crumble for them, it loses its stamina and they see the chinks in the armor.

The same thing happens when children who find that stability in the school but find their footing shaken in the home. Children have their two feet firmly planted one in the foundation of the school and one in the foundation of the home. If one or the other develop cracks the safety, security and stability of the child begins to crumble and the first thing that goes with it is what they counted on the most their entire lives, religion. The one thing they thought they could count on. That is the common thread that weaves through every area of their lives.

Children are just that children, their minds are not developed fully enough to understand more than that they have been crushed, pained and burdened. They don’t know how to deal with the pain other than to run and blame. They try to shed the pain by shedding what they think is causing the pain and look for ways to heal, other things to try other uniforms to try on. It takes time for them to mature and grow and figure things out for themselves. It takes time for them to get in touch with their pain and understand what is really hurting them or who really hurt them and why they felt so hurt or is still feeling so hurt. It takes time, maturity and some experience to understand what is right and wrong, especially for them, and how to differentiate between the two. It takes time and maturity to really understand who their friends really are, and how to make the best choices for themselves. Every kid thinks they know best, but when they look back in a year, they realize how foolish they were only a year earlier. My mom a”h always said “mit de yurin kimpt de seichel”, with the years comes the sense.

I only wish that we could truly trust every other Jew with our children. Unfortunately we can’t. Unfortunately we cannot protect our children from even our very own good intentions. When we send our children out the door we expect everyone to treat them as we do, or as we would like them to. That is a pipe dream. When we register our kids in yeshiva we expect them to hire only the best mechanchim and the best role models as if every single one of them were teaching their only child. It doesn’t happen, and we hope and pray that they treat our children as if our kids were their kids, and that doesn’t happen either or at least we hope that they don’t treat their kids the way some of our kids have been treated.

Let’s face it, you don’t need a license or training to be a parent, and you don’t need a license or training to be a mechanech. We have all learned that the hard way and unfortunately a lot of innocent yiddishe neshomas have learnt it the hard way too. I have recently found out that you don’t even need semicha to open a yeshiva and call yourself a Rosh Yeshiva. So for the most part children have managed to live normal lives and successfully move on into adulthood. Unfortunately for those who didn’t we have to help them through the challenge, as difficult as it is, we must do what we can because they didn’t ask to be in the position that they are in any more than we as parents asked to be here. No child who didn’t have any cracks in their foundation finds themselves in this predicament. No child in this parsha enjoys being here. So for those who say “OTD is a choice, these kids are choosing to leave the fold and are choosing the life they are living” I say, YOU Know nothing about the parsha and until you are in it, please don’t comment. I don’t wish any of you even 1/10th the pain these kids are suffering.

WOW, and whomever else is reading this, as difficult as this is for you, please keep in mind how difficult this is for him. I know it doesn’t seem that way at times especially when he runs off at the mouth. At the moment he feels like a man without a country. He is the black sheep of the family. He probably feels like no one in his home or family loves him or understands him. He probably feels like everyone hates him. IN HIS MIND he probably feels that the only ones who do understand him are his friends. In his mind he cannot comprehend that you would or could understand him. How could you understand that his Rosh Yeshiva was wrong? How could you possibly understand why he doesn’t want to go back to yeshiva, why he doesn’t want to be frum when you are so frum, when he is going against everything you believe in, when no one would even believe he is your child? In his mind he can’t understand why you would love him when he is spitting in your face? So he is testing you to see if you mean it, if your love is real or if you will only love him if he is religious, and he can’t be religious for you or because of you or in order for you to love him.

At least he came home…

hopefully if he is happy he is NOT disrespectful..

WOW- I was once told all our T’hillim and T’fillos go into a bank account and accumulate.. then at the end they come back to ‘save’ u..

so I just keep praying.. I know you do too, but you seem to think its not working. IT WORKS! we just dont see where or we will see it later.

It’s the only thing that keeps us sane and strong to go thru all this.

I am not one who has the time and looks frequently at the coffee room of YW and I noticed that this topic has been going on for 3 month so I browsed through the 17 pages of bloggers and I have decided to write back to “write or wrong”. Firstly, you may never blame yourself or your spouse that your son is and wants to be the way he is. IYH he will come around and you will see and have much nachas from him, eventhough right now you think that is impossible. My son was able to be the poster child for any kids at risk organization and at age 15 he was hanging out with kids all hours of the night. My wife cried many days & nights and I do think that if a child sees a mother in the corner davening fervently and saying Tehilllim with tremendous kavanah the child will get somewhat bothered by it and may help the situation. You should have hatzlocha and see sooner than later the nachas you deserve

W.O.W., I am extremely happy that he is B”H OK. On the other hand I do understand your hurt and frustration and I will not even attempt to minimize it one iota. It is what it is and you are entitled to your feelings. It hurts and it hurts badly.

Speaking to the R”Y is not a bad idea, although I doubt he will do anything or admit to any wrong doing. However, advocating for your child and letting him know from your perspective and from his what he did and what the result of that is will at least help you and maybe other children. In addition it will mean something to your child that you had the guts to go back to the R”Y and tell him that he was wrong, he hurt your child, and that he owes him an apology. Standing up for your child is always the right thing to do.

W.O.W., btw, one small smile from him will heal your heart. Then it will be broken again and it will heal again. Hang in there, you are in for a long and heart wrenching roller-coaster ride. But we, if not us here in the CR, others in the parsha or familiar with the parsha will be here for you to offer support. You won’t have to go through this alone.

As I have said before TP is a process (a very successful one) and needs to be administered in a very specific way. I don’t think it would work in this type of setting. Optimally, I think a visit to NY is your best bet. Finances and logistics are NOT a good reason for not coming, especially considering what’s at stake.

There is another bedieved option but I would need your email or you would need mine. If Avi didn’t answer you yet then you must have gotten a wrong address.