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I think the main point is to show him that he can watch films, listen to music, go to a bar and still remain a 100% religious jew. Enjoying life in these ways is NOT mutually exclusive to judaism. Don’t let him think that either he keeps the charedi ideology or he may as well break shabbat. As if it was all or nothing. Give him the opportunity to do both, and then, when he is older and understands more the reasons why charedim have these chumras, he can choose for himself if he wants to accept them. But either way, he will remain 100% religious.
You didn’t mention that you had lived in Israel. Was he there too?
How old? Sometimes, as you mentioned growing up in a frum-charedi community can be very demanding from a child. They see to it they aren’t allowed to do what they want as a kid. Hopefully, his friends aren’t doing drugs (I was talking drugs being the norm for GOYIM) But, there are a lot of JEWISH rap groups out there. Ever heard of Black Hattitude? It’s a great rap group -I know the singer on it personally from yeshiva. And has kept me going, even in my late years. I notice yitzyshalom has some of the same ideas I had.
Giving him space, and yes, you mentioned – you do. Is great!
If he feels rabbonim have failed him- then why force another rabbi to give him advice? Perhaps, there is someone well-connected in the community he can talk to? A frum doctor?
A close-friend? Someone who he knows he can talk with full confidentiality? You say he is full of hate towards rabbonim…
how so? Why does he hate them so much?
Are you able to talk to him one on one? Is your husband able to talk to him? Does he have a connection with either of you?
You say he blames you for being too charedi and pushing your lifestyle onto him? Perhaps you can allow him to choose a yeshiva that he thinks he would like to go to. Somewhere which he would feel more comfortable with! Give him options! If giving him space isn’t helping. Let him CHOOSE where he wants to go. Tell him, you were looking online and found a bunch of places for the summer he might like to attend and check it out. Tell him it is HIS CHOICE.
But, that he has to make a choice. Now is getting close to bein hazmanim- there are a lot of NCSY camps and other such camps- I’m not familiar with all of them- that can help allow a kid be who he is in a Torahdi’k setting, and for him to chill out also.
Perhaps, over camp, he can grow in a less-stressed out setting than a yeshiva and maybe he will meet friends who will help him get back on track for the new zman.
my account seems to have been blocked…
I had the same thing.. my daughter blames me as well for being chassidish. my son is tryng to convince us to change all the boys yeshivas.. but we are chassidish..
I accept my son the way he is.. I would call it parve.
but he has to understand I am not changing the entire ‘mehus’ of my family because he said so.
I am blaming some melamdim and RY as well. and I definitely agree they wronged him. They say its the kid because they treat everyone equally and not all turned out this way..
They did not want to understand that each kid is created differently.
When I explained what this child was about and perhaps a way to ‘treat’ him so he may succeed, the answer was this is not our policy and all fell on deaf ears!
I warned my husband. At a certain age these kids grow wings and they fly.. How right I was!
i will try posting again.
they seem to restrict posting here. I’ll try with a much shorter version of what I was going to send.
mr/s. moderator. Why are you not posting my replies? Is it because you don’t like them?
You seem to be under the impression that it is impossible to remain religious with ‘goyishe’ influences but there are hundreds of thousands of jews who are proving you wrong. Being dati is accepting the 13 ani ma’amims; accepting the torah and the talmud.
It is not being extra chumradik on various specific halachot that the haredim decided are most important. Each religious jew keeps to his own level, whether that includes watching movies, going to bars, not getting up for an old man on a bus or stealing.
Your son may be deliberating due to his lifestyle not making sense or he may may be just using this as an excuse because he wants to go out and have fun. Either way, i think the best next step would be for YOU to accept that the haredi way does not have a monopoly over 100% religious judaism and then you can try telling him that he can have his ‘fun’ and he can live as a religous jew as part of the 21st century. Then, later, if he is genuinely on the level, he may put aside films and the like for holier activities.
There is even less perfection in the secular world.
I live near a public school and I watch parents fetch their children daily.. the way the parents speak and act to the children, I would not expect otherwise.
But the grass is always greener on the other side..
the kids think all the permissiveness is better and they try going there, till life on the other side teaches them, and they start coming back, let’s hope, but happy they are not!
Al pi darko?! I keep asking the same ques. the melamdim are getting confused as to whos derech they are supposed to be teaching.
T’filos and more t’filos that is our only answer!
Only one bashefer can put seichel into the childrens head the melamdim and the ry! bec nobody hears when I speak I’m just a mother sticking up for her kid– who then if not the mother!
as you can see I am very angered!!
HASHEM SHOUL HELP US ALL- AMEN
WoW: After reading more of this, I think it might be very good for your son if you showed him Rabbi Slifkin’s blog (rationalistjudaism). It might be something that he can greatly enjoy, appreciate, and show him a side of Judaism that he might love.
yitzyshalom,
Now we know why the mods didn’t allow your posts.
What you call “being extra chumradik on various specific halachot” include things which are by no means chumros “that the haredim decided are most important”, rather, basic halacha.
Your statement that “Being dati is accepting the 13 ani ma’amims; accepting the torah and the talmud” has a glaring omission. You didn’t mention that actually keeping the laws included in the Torah and the Talmud is necessary to be considered “dati”.
Stealing? whether that includes stealing? Am I reading correctly or there is a typo? And disrespecting old people?
I can understand that someone goes to a bar or a night club or watches “movies”: humans have free choice. However I expect such a person to present himself as a frei yid and to behave overall as a decent human being. Is this too much to ask?
I will check it out as well.. Thank you sam2
write or wrong and mom12,
Before you do, ask a rov whose opinion you value. My rebbeim reject his hashkafos, as does a good portion of the Torah world.
Sam2,
I heard that R’ Shachter isn’t too thrilled with Slifkin either. Is that true?
If I recall (It ha are s been a very long discussion), wasn’t it mentioned that trying to “get to him” through religious means is futile? He will immediately associate them with an attack. 90% of guys that are disinterested in Judaism,are simply disinterested because they are adolescents. They are at a point when rules are almost oxymoronic to what they are trying to accomplish i.e a sense of their space, a community, a sense of who they ARE…all of which are journeys within which rules have no place. At this point wanting your son to be happy is the ONLY important thing; and ironically not “caring” about the religious elements will allow him ( in the long run) to ease back into it
Write or wrong – I sympathize with you. I also note that you may want to consult your Rav, or a Rav with experience dealing with similar situations, before rejecting another Derech for your son. Your fight is to keep him a Torah-observant Jew, and that and that alone should be your focus. Externals are nice, and keeping all the “syugim” that have been set up are important, but rejecting paths that have the potential to win the main battle because they don’t preserve the less key aspects may be a case of Tafasta Meruba.
Re: Rabbi Slifkin – he is unquestionably controversial and not for everyone. That being said, please do note that he has Haskamos on several of his books from Rav Yisrael Belsky. Additionally, there are those who reject his books in general, but say that if one has a need for such Hashkafos to answer questions in Emuna, they are acceptable as a Bdieved.
Hatzlacha Rabba,
an Israeli Yid
Didnt check it out.. but will do so cuz you are now making me curious..
If wow not recommending, doesn’t sound like I will either..
DY: I have never heard Rav Schachter say anything negative about Rav Slifkin. I have heard said in his name, however, that those who called him an Apikores never understood his questions or his answers. I don’t think Rav Schachter agrees with his Derech, but he doesn’t see it as being illegitimate.
WoW: Okay, it was just an idea.
First — this continues to be an amazing, intelligent, thoughtful and smart discussion — kol hakavod to YWN for hosting and managing this board — I imagine so helpful to so many people.
I did want to respond to something WOW had written earlier.
I can only go by my own experience — but telling your son that anything goyish is dangerous schmutz is about the worst way to approach this — he knows that’s not true and makes you untrustworthy and then irrelevant.
By now he’s figured out that most goyim arent shickers; the best secular writers and moviemakers convey the challenges and complexities of life (especially what he’s experiencing) with insight and profundity; the canon of Western music, from Bach to Bebop to the Beatles to Broadway, reaches into the human soul in ways nothing else can.
I would suggest that you need to find a way to not paint this in black and white but give him the space to find ways to explore and incorporate the best of mainstream culture into his Judaism and not create a situation where one is set against the other forcing him to make a choice you won’t like. While I know this is not your Hashkafa, it may be the process by which he finds a Judaism that’s comfortable for him rather then breaking with everything.
I hope this is helpful
I understand that this is virtually impossible for a caring and loving parent to do…but you must be able to “deal with with life on it’s own terms” (which is the idea behind Din shebi’Chesed…but that is another discussion) Lot ran from Avraham straight to…SEDOM the nerve center of Din, and then he decided to become a dayan! He ran from chesed because it was smothering him. When the angles came to him, he begged them not to take him back to Avraham. Chesed in its purest form is not good (the act of a man who sleeping with his sister is referred to as chesed!) You can not smother (i know you dont mean to, but try to see it form his vantage point, as krum as it might be) him with love and expect that to help. He must come to it (what ever that is) on his own terms…be there for him when he is ready, but recognize that you can not control this situation.
As painful as it may be, and be assured it will be, your only job is to be there for him as he comes along. This is not something you or any Rabbi can control…HELP but do not control.
In the main world individualism is highly prized, Unfortunalty in the Charedi world it is not. Everything is seen as black and white.
Not everyone can be a charedi. Its a tough life for many. I know many love that life but obviously some dont.
You are not a Rasha if you cant be a Charedi.
I think you get this idea, but are worried about your community and you will be perceived. I think you need to forget about your community and think about your son.
It is not an Aveirah to wear Jeans. If thats what he wants let it go for now. You have to think now, whats against Hashkafa and whats against HALACHA. Fight the Halacha issues and let the Hashkafa ones go for now.
I think you sense this from your posts, but seem unwilling to take the jump
Be careful where people recommend you send your boy as off the derech means many different things, from a boy who does not want to daven to someone with serious drug related problems.
I relate to the post of Zahavasdad because I think when a young person is seen going off the derech they are not necessarily seeking to reject Torah values , but perhaps turning away from the tribal conformity which dominates so many communities. As I have said elsewhere, often the brightest kids can go otd. Bright kids do not like being forced not to think, they also can see through some of the hypocrisy that exists around them and get a perverse pleasure in playing the system.
I write from the other end of the spectrum, I am a Modern Orthodox mother with quite a few kids, and one of my sons turned out to be a real rebel, he insisted on going to a litvish yeshiva, wears only black and white complete with a smart big black hat on shabbat/Yom Tov. He gave away his jeans in exchange for a monochrome wardrobe which broke my heart for what it symbolised to me, a strong dati leumi ima, until I realised what HE is, my son, not a mere member of somebody’s yeshiva or shul, my flesh and blood. I realised his life is not about fulfilling my expectations but his, he made those decisions as a teenager and now as a young man he is at the heart of our family. It is hard not to worry about what your community thinks, but most of all worry about what your son thinks about you, his family. If he sees honesty, true emunah and yiddishkeit from home, he will acknowledge the difference between what he is rebelling at the moment, and what he actually has deep down. You should be firm about halachot and your standards of yiddishkeit, but do not be intimidated by the community around you. If his RY has lost students then others too have fled the yeshiva for their own issues, your son is not alone, remember a yeshiva is not a mere place for education, it is a place of spiritual development, positive or G-d forbid, negative if undertaken by the wrong people.
Do not worry about what others think, in truth the number of families with difficult circumstances to contend with is very high, nobody talks about it, people only like to talk in public about their great achievements, not their challenges.
I teach in a big educational establishment with many young men and women from frum backgrounds seeking professional qualifications, you would be surprised to realise how many of those who have been the most interesting and successful students had a hard time as teenagers, went to various yeshivas and sems, and then took their challenging experiences with them to make postive changes to their own lives. He is your son and you love him, disregard concerns about image and focus on truth, he may surprise you with his response.
Write or wrong: You are missing a third possibility. One can experience the outside world and still understand what ideas from that world are antithetical to Judaism. I know of someone who would tell their kids, whenever they were watching a movie, what points in the movie contradict Halachah and Torah ideals. I know that that’s not the Derech you want for yourself or your kids, and it’s definitely a Derech that a lot of people think is very dangerous, but at this moment it seems to be the best-case-scenario Derech for your son.
I dont know about the CEO of IBM, She is a woman not a man wearing jeans, but there are plenty of photos of Steve Jobs (Apple) and Bill Gates (Microsoft) wearing jeans. There are also plenty of pictures of both George Bush and Barack Obama wearing Jeans.
Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook is famous for wearing hoodies
But the reality is its not a White shirt and suit or jeans, there is an in between, Most men today wear Khakis (I think thats what its called). You need only go into Macys and see what I mean, Also most men wear Polo or Ralph lauren type shirts. I am not sure what they are called, but they have sleeves and collars but are certainly not “white” It is not assur to do so.
Finally I might suggest moving from your community. A “torah” community that tells Lashon Horah about its residents because they dont follow their exact Hashkafa is no torah community. You can debate about Hashkafa, but Lashon Horah is an AVERIRAH M’Doraisa.
Are these values you want to live with?
WOW, it seems to me that some of this is classic power struggle. You are the adult, and as much as he may be instigating it, your son really needs you to not get sucked into his power struggles. Please read up or reach out for help specifically on diffusing or de-escalating situations with manipulation issues. All things considered, an emotionally healthy person will be in a much better position to “choose life”.
I encourage you to remember (as mentioned earlier) that Hashem chose you as the mother for your son AND your other children. He put them into a family with each other. You know that He knows what He is doing! Lost opportunities are a bitter pill to swallow. Still, I hope you can remember times you were disappointed with a situation initially and in the end things worked out for the best. The whispers and other forms of exclusion are inappropriate and not Torah-true, and I hope your children can learn this and that you can build your children’s self-confidence so that they can weather this storm.
I continue to hope and pray for the best for you and all struggling frum families.
Finally I might suggest moving from your community. A “torah” community that tells Lashon Horah about its residents because they dont follow their exact Hashkafa is no torah community. You can debate about Hashkafa, but Lashon Horah is an AVERIRAH M’Doraisa.
By making the accusation that a certain community is more guilty of loshon horah than another, you’ve just been motzi shen ra on that community.
write or wrong I do deeply empathise, I understand the importance for you of fitting in with your community. I agree with zahavsdad about the tragedy of lashon horah and imposed conformity that afflicts many a tight knit observant community.
Just a word of encouragement from the heart, whatever you feel inside do not give negative people the chance to get busy with your family set up, be confident and hold your head up in public, negative types can sense when we ache for our children.
Ok you are in a difficult challenging place now, well it is not easy to be a parent, the trials and tribulations of those around you may be far worse but better hidden. I never realised this until I ended up teaching young adults!
By making the accusation that a certain community is more guilty of loshon horah than another, you’ve just been motzi shen ra on that community.
If the community engages in such activity then they ARE guilty
And there are plenty of communities where this does not happen. I made it my business to live in a community where this does not occur. I like to be left alone and dont need nosy neighbors telling me how to live my life
And belive it or not I get along with most of my neighbors, they all know me.
If you live in a singular Neighborhood this activity occurs more frequently than if you live in a mixed community.
If you look at Williamsburg where its almost all one community this happens alot, but if you live in Lower East Side, Flatbush , Queens , Far Rockaway/ 5 towns or teaneck for example where there is more of communal mix it doesnt occur as much as you are living with different groups together and people realize there are different hashkafot.
It is a shame communities are becoming more and more Homogeneous
DY: While I won’t defend the poster here because he does have a tendency to do that against the more right-wing communities, in all fairness WOW did say that that was a major concern of hers in this particular community.
Sam2,
I wasn’t referring to this particular situation. Maybe if someone feels that they’re uncomfortable in a particular community, they should move.
The implication, though, as you picked up, wass that somehow the further to the right you lean, the less nizhar you are in hilchos loshon hora. That’s patently ridiculous.
The president is ALWAYS working , he is never home and he always represents the people
There are pictures of Bush and Obama throwing out the first pitch at a Baseball game wearing jeans.
There are pictures of Bush at his ranch doing “ranch stuff” like using an ax.
Steve Jobs used to wear Jeans at MacWorld making a major announcement about the latest from Apple.
Sam2,
I wasn’t referring to this particular situation. Maybe if someone feels that they’re uncomfortable in a particular community, they should move.
The implication, though, as you picked up, wass that somehow the further to the right you lean, the less nizhar you are in hilchos loshon hora. That’s patently ridiculous.
DY: It has nothing to do with “the right”, CV. It depends how insular the community is. The more insular the community, the more of a “Shanda” it becomes when someone leaves, whether it is an Amish, a Kibbutznik or someone from Kiryas Yoel. Nothing to do with religion. Furthermore, the more insular the community, the more a Shanda affects the remainder of the family, whether it is Shunning, blacklisting or rejection of shidduchim.
WOW your son disrespects you in public and you are worried about his clothing?
ok, If I’m getting this correct. You said in the beginning he was going away from yiddishkeit. Then, you mentioned he just doesn’t wear tzitzis anymore, and he got rid of the black hat. Now, you say he is being mechalel shabbos. First of all, to stand up for the others, including myself who have given their truthful, heartfelt stories to you, YOUR story seems to change every time I read this thread. Ok, so he wasn’t raised in a less-charedi atmosphere.
And you had mentioned he hadn’t learned all bein hazmanim long.
He’s a teenager – they do that. Just HOW BAD IS THIS SITUATION?
Don’t mean to sound rude, but it sounds like you’re over exaggerating the whole situation a bit. Does he not want to go back to the same yeshiva or does he totally want to be a drop out?
Would having him attend a non-religious high school be better for him? How about a place which helps kids that are going off the derech?
ALL IN ALL – people have different views of what OTD is exactly, and I think you’re pushing the story way over to what it is exactly to hear other opinions.
please delete this thread and start over with the whole story upfront – be truthful about it. Discuss openly what you have already tried with him. And what it is he is exactly doing- to make you think he is going off the derech!
I’m sorry for sounding rude, but your story just doesn’t add up.
Tahini- she was the one who mentioned her kid was going off the derech.
And Zehava is right- not being charedi isn’t a terrible thing.
Being charedi is a lifestyle. You should be able to CHOOSE it, not have it forced on you.
Not everyone has to wear the black pants/ white shirt. I go to a kollel and everyone is wearing polo shirts and there is a very loud kol torah! They are working fellows who are in the working field, but have chosen not to wear the black pants/ white shirt deal.
There are others who even in the work field still dress yeshivishe.
That’s their choice. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.
You want to remain a Jew- then don’t force your son to do anything. At this rate, you got nothing to lose.
The point is for their kids to grow up as a mentch, believe in Hashem and to show the rest of the world what fearing GD is all about.
There is nothing wrong with not being yeshivish’e or going to shul without a hat or a jacket. Other people might call that being a bum, and you’re going to hell if you’re not living the yeshivishe lifestyle. But, I think not.
Not living the yeshiva lifestyle is perfectly NORMAL. And there is nothing wrong with doing your own thing and fearing HASHEM in your own way.
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