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Multiple independent studies of GMOs done in France,
UK, and now Russia confirm, that GMOs cause sterility in the third generation of those mammals that consume them. This is why GMOs are banned across Europe.
In other words mama lab rat eats GMOs, her offspring have increased mortality rates, her offspring also have reduced fertility, but the next generation is completely sterile.
This has been demonstrated time and again.
This should not surprise those Individuals who are familiar with the Torah. The Torah strictly prohibits the mixing of unlike organisms. This mitzvah is referred to as Kil’ayim.
I learned when I studied at Yeshiva Aish HaTorah in the old City, that GMOs would be strictly prohibited by Jewish Law, in the event they were ever legalized because they were an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. Now that they have been legalized the OU says they are Kosher. My question is-. Why?Out of curiosity, have you contacted the OU and asked them the question directly?
99% sure this is a troll thread, but there is a 1% chance that just is just another sad case of someone woefully uninformed on what GMO’s are.
When Gregor Mendel changed color of pea pods by moving pollen from one type of pea plant to another (the same way bees do), the resulting plant is technically a genetically modified organism. The genetically modified corn that yields more ears per plant is similarly done using farming techniques with pollination. The uninformed masses seem to think they’re shooting death rays over crops to turn them into evil GMO’s.
It seems no one else seems to think so. Virtually all food we eat has been genetically modified, and the process began over several generations ago, so the human race is probably extinct by now. If you honestly believe the anti-GMO nonsense, feel free to live off wild grass, but don’t be disappointed when you do NOT have the world do yourself in 50 years.
The only halachic issue with GMOs might be if you introduce genes from one plant or animal into another, and that would deal with questions of kilayim. The consensus seems to be that unless it is done with actual grafting or cross breeding (mating), there is not an issue, and that deriving benefit is not as problematic as doing it ourselves (e.g. we can use a mule, but we can’t cause one to be made).
Many many people have stopped eating any food made in china because they have a track record of using questionable hazardous ingredients in foods.(just do a google on search on imported food from china)Many frum candy companies import candies made in china with a chassidishe hashgachos and others. How can any kosher hashgachos with this knowledge give a hechsher and call it kosher.?
Neville ChaimBerlin,
“99% sure this is a troll thread”
Agreed.
“When Gregor Mendel changed color of pea pods by moving pollen from one type of pea plant to another (the same way bees do), the resulting plant is technically a genetically modified organism.”
Not true – that is cross-pollination, or cross-breeding, and does not fall under the GMO rubric. GMOs are produced through genetic engineering (direct manipulation of the genes of an organism) or transgenic techniques (artificial transfer of genes from one organism to another – doesn’t necessarily even have to be the same species). Neither technique can happen naturally.
josh2336,
“Multiple independent studies of GMOs done in France,
UK, and now Russia confirm, that GMOs cause sterility in the third generation of those mammals that consume them.”If this is so, it should be fairly simple to cite such a study. Can you provide the title of such a study, and the publication? Thanks!
“Not true – that is cross-pollination, or cross-breeding, and does not fall under the GMO rubric.”
You’re correct. I looked into it and it looks like hybrid corn also is not technically a GMO, so that was my mistake.
Ok, so I googled it. Monsanto says the guy asking the question is probably talking about the Seralini study, and then says peers said it was flawed and the publisher retracted the study.
BTW, it’s not just candy that from companies get from China. Check out frozen vegetables and even dry yeast.
josh2336: Thanks for sharing both the OU’s response and your background.
“my question is why they are being considered Kosher when
It says in the Torah that mixing unlike creatures is one of the primary abominations that brought on the flood of Noah?”If that is your only question, it is an easy one to answer. While it is assur for a Jew to graft species it isnt for a non-Jew and the result is Kosher. Thus even IF GMO’s where Kilaim (which they likely aren’t) it till doesnt make the product assur
“this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.”
Try not to decide what He finds an abomination. LEt HIm tell us. He gave us the Torah and eating Kilayim done by others is allowed as abominable as you may find it.The problem here is that when you take genes from a jellyfish and splice them into a tomato using a modified form of the Ebola virus as the mechanism, this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.
Practical halacha is determined by poskim using a specific process. It is not determined based on philosophical concepts such as “this is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord”.
Paleontologists have found clear evidence of humans engaging in genetic modification of plants and animals since longer than there has been writing. If your grandfather was one of the first to dabble in creating GMOs, he must have known Noah personally, if not Adam ha-Rishon himself.
All that happened in the last cenutry was an improvement in technique. No reputable scientist claims GMOs have been proven to be “bad” – however in many countries (particulary in Europe) they have a rule that something must be proven to be “safe” (though in all fairness, the rule is designed primarily to protect inefficient farmers against competition from farmers in American and Britain using modern methods) . GMOs even if the definition is defined to the newer methods of accomplishing it are widely used, and are a major reason why people have enough to eat.
Without GMOs people would be starving in the streets. And if you really believe that falling birth rates are caused by GMOs, you are incredibly naive.
yehudayonaParticipant
Ok, so I googled it. Monsanto says the guy asking the question is probably talking about the Seralini study, and then says peers said it was flawed and the publisher retracted the study.BTW, it’s not just candy that from companies get from China. Check out frozen vegetables and even dry yeast.
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I agree other food products are imported from china. Reason i mentioned candy is because candy in its entirety is made in china and then sold as candy specifically for children. (remember tainted baby formula from china )Frozen veggies is first planted its not manufactured like candy.It’s not ok to eat a mule because it does not have split feet/chew its cud, not because it is a result of kelayim.
Once made, we are allowed to eat kelayim and/or benefit from it. (except to use a grafted esrog for the 4 minim)
I’m wondering if you ever ate a grapefruit- it’s actually a cross of an orange and a pomelo, made back in the 1700s (check out Wikipedia). Totally kosher.Josh
you ask
“Are you trying to say it is ok to eat a mule?”No because it doesnt have split hooves and chew its cud
It is however ok to eat a nectarine, grapefruit etc.
(And again GMO’s are likely not even Kilayim)“Are you trying to say it is ok to eat a mule?”
No but it is ok to eat a Kvi which some say is a cross between a goat and gazelle.
This halacha is codified in Rambam MAchalos issuros 1:13“כִּלְאַיִם הַבָּא מִבְּהֵמָה טְהוֹרָה עִם חַיָּה טְהוֹרָה הוּא הַנִּקְרָא כְּוִי. חֶלְבּוֹ אָסוּר וְאֵין לוֹקִין עָלָיו וּמְכַסִּין אֶת דָּמוֹ. וְאֵין מִין טָמֵא מִתְעַבֵּר מִמִּין טָהוֹר כְּלָל:”
“This does not make sense.”
I dont make the rules
Corn and wheat were genetically modified in prehistoric times (i.e. before there were written records), the same goes to dogs and cattle. While unmodified dogs still exist (wolves), unmodified cattle became extinct. None of the basic foods exist in pre-modified form.
So now they can do it faster. Big deal. If mass sterility is a problem caused by GMOs, you would see it among groups such as Mormons and Orthodox Jews, but in fact both groups have close genetic cousins with whom they share diet (both eat GMOs), but only the seculars have falling fertility, somewhat proving that the well documents fall in fertility is caused by religion and culture, not diet.
Abusing small rodents with disgusting experiments designed to get tenure for professors proves very little. Such experiments in the past have proved whatever the professor thinks will get him tenure. A century ago, they proved that Jews and Blacks were inferior, since at the time that was a politically correct view (which is how democratic governments enacted the holocaust in Europe and Jim Crow in America – relying on best science).
Your hypothesis that GMOs cause infertility is easy to test, and the evidence is pretty overwhelming that GMOs are safe.
Each GMO has very little in common with other GMOs and more in common with the original version of whatever it is.
Akuperna – experiments on small rodents actually proves a lot, and is used all the time in valid science, as models for many diseases, preclinical trials for meds, and to dissect basic biological processes. Such experiments in the present have proved that a drug may have potential to cure a particular cancer and serve as the basis for designing a phase I human clinical trial. Or show how a particular gene mutation leads to a particular disease. You cannot dismiss the studies that the OP brings down just because they were done in rats, this is not something reserved for eugenics and pseudoscience. Please stick to valid arguments involving things like flawed methodology, improper design of controls, conclusions based on correlations and not causations, results that are not reproducible.
Josh, after reading your original post, I am a little bit confused.
You basically make two statements:
Statement #1: “GMOs cause sterility in the third generation of those mammals that consume them” (This seems to be the point everyone is discussing)
Statement #2: “GMOs would be strictly prohibited by Jewish Law, in the event they were ever legalized because they were an abomination in the eyes of the Lord” (This seems to be your main point)
What is the connection between these two statements?
Akuermaq, would you PLEASE stop it! There is a world of difference between cross-breeding two similar species in a natural way and creating GMO’s by splicing genes in a laboratory.
I’m surprised none of the responses that I’ve seen so far mentioned that there are and probably have always been a lot of kosher certified foods one could classify as unhealthy, though this post focuses on GMOs alone.
I mean foods and drinks with high sugar content or foods high in fat and salt are obvious targets.
I think the better question comes down to how paternalistic do we want or expect the supervisory agencies to be vs how much choice and control do we wish to retain for ourselves?
Hey Josh,
A few things. First of all, o believe you have a misunderstanding of the halachic status of klayim. As others have noted, a Jew is prohibited from producing Klayim, but may partake in it if produced by others. It is for this reason that we can own a mule if we so desired.
Regarding the “tests” that claim that GMO’s cause sterilization, there is a scientific consensus that currently available food derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food, but that each GM food needs to be tested on a case-by-case basis before introduction. The issue of sterilization seems to be unfounded.
Third, you should keep in mind what GMO’s were created to solve. Farmers have issues with insects eating their plants and parasites infecting them. Many farmers turned to pesticides as a response, but there was a lot of harm to the environment and to humans with pesticides, as it is in essence poison. In turn farmers found a different solution, using genes from a similar more immune plant to build up the immune system of this plant. If not for GMO’s there would be more pesticide, and that has had proven negative effects.
I took a look at ref 12 in the list- it stood out to me because of the journal it was published in. Turns out it is a letter/interview by a scientist who conducted a well publicized but unpublished (at the time) study about the affects of GMOs on fertility and mortality. What is interesting is that for each of her points, there is a rebuttal by other scientists. One by one they question her results. Some of the issues that they raise: there is a much higher than normal death rate among newborn rat pups in the control group, and lower weights in controls than is normally found in these rats. This was a rad-flag to them that there was something wrong with the way these rats were taken care of during the experiment, which raises questions on any conclusion made from the study – when the background death of controls is abnormally high, it is hard to conclude that the even higher death rate in the experimental group is due to whatever they claim. Another issue, since rats were grouped together several in a cage and the food given out freely, sometimes along with regular food, they have no way of knowing how much of the GMO each rat actually consumed. Also, The GMO food was not matched to the control in terms of strains, type of food, nutritional content etc, so there are other factors that can affect the results besides whether it was GMO or not. Basically, hard to know if the results are meaningful since proper protocols for taking care of the animals, for feeding them, for determining the origin of the food and the actual GMO content were not followed.
Josh
I don’t claim to be an expert in kashrut, but a couple of points
In general , halacha ignores the microscopic.
You can drink water bc the microorganisms aren’t hallachically significant. Blights on an estrog are evaluated at arms length.
Chassidush poskim tend to be more machmir on this in regards to IVF and it’s status as a mamzir. But gene splicing should be considered kosher
As to your case of hybrid kosher animals created from treif DNA, you run into a separate problem of animals needing mesorah to be considered kosher.Hi Josh.
You posted a long list of sources which you haven’t read. I googled one or two & they seem to come from a Facebook group FreeGMO Canada.
I randomly clicked on study #12. Here is a direct quote from the abstract: “No statistically significant differences were found in relative organ weights of rats within groups but there were some minimal histopathological changes in liver and kidney.”I am not clear if you are asking a sincere question here or have an agenda. In my experience, if one has a question about something learned from a Rav in the past, it is more helpful to go back to that Rav for follow up, or if not possible to get in touch with an associate. Posting on the internet is going to get you responses like you’ve received.
I posted the above to clarify for the other posters what I found when trying to follow the sources. I am also unclear why you’d post 40 sources you haven’t read to support a question about kashrus.
I guess P T Barnum was right again, there’s a sucker born every minute.
It is clear that the OP has no idea in the world what a GMO is. The fact that he believes the garbage on the internet tells me that there is a serious issue with him. With all due respect to Aish and all the good work they do, you still have a lot to learn. Perhaps you should come back after learning for another 15 years or so when you can actually paskin shaylos.
Why doesn’t it bother you that you, yes you, are also a genetically modified organism? You have to be because otherwise you wouldn’t be here.
A person has to learn to think when they see narishkeit on the internet. You have to think is this true. Can it be true? Does it make sense in reality? In this case, it makes no sense whatsoever. GMO foods have been around for a long time, longer than three generations yet we keep procreating.
Without GMO, we would not have many of the foods that we have and their availability because the crops would not be able to handle the various temperatures or seasons or any other reason that crops are bred the way they are.
If you want to be careful for whatever the reason is to eat non-GMO, go right ahead and spend the extra money in order to be able to do so but please please please stay out of my business!
josh your description of the horrors of recombinant DNA is not based on reality, at least not the one that I live in (I have worked with recombinant DNA using viral and non-viral vectors). Once the recombinant gene has been integrated into the target genome, it is no longer “infectious”, The virus that was used as its vehicle of delivery is long gone. The gene can’t just pop out and enter some other cell and integrate into its genome, which is what you seem to be describing. What can happen is that if the modified plant in question is mated with another plant, there can be recombination between the chromosomes and therefore genetic inheritance to the next generation. But they cannot mate or cross with anything, only with species similar enough genetically to them- so the trait can spread only within species that are close enough, not the entire ecosystem.
In terms of us being affected when we eat in, whole genes cannot enter our cells from the digestive track- first because the DNA content of what we eat is broken down to its molecular components, and second because there are no transporters on the cell surface for genes, only the building blocks can enter (hence the need for the virus carrier that you described). Even if a gene could enter, it would not spontaneously recombine with your genes. Is this could happen as you describe, then anytime we ate a plant we would be acquiring plant genes and eventually turn into plants, and we would have to be as wary as regular food as GMOs. If GMOs are causing cancer or infertility- IF – it is because of something else, not because the recombinant gene is entering our genome.Re your question about the theoretical hybrid pig/cow, to explain what Mentsch was referring to:
if one would discover a new breed of cows, even though it has the signs of a kosher animal, we could not automatically eat it, since our Rabbanim have established an additional criteria – that there is a tradition (mesora) that the animal is kosher. Without that mesora, we cannot eat it. These are real questions that have come up from time to time. Since your new hybrid obviously cannot have had a mesora establishing it as a kosher animal, we cannot eat it. In this way animals are different from plant products.Josh
Another point
Let’s call it hashkafic
The overall fear is common of what I consider to be a secular attitude of a need to save the world . Nuclear war can wipe us out. Ebola can mutate and wipe us out. Sure bad things can happen but Hashem runs the world.
Clearly we can’t poison our water and expect it to magically be drinkable. But without implicit proof of harm, trying to feed the world is probably an endeavor that Hashem will guide in a beneficial manner.Those 40 or so studies (which have serious flaws in and of themselves) are the list that comes from all the non-GMO people. The problem is that there have been 1700+ studies (mostly way more robust than the studies listed) which have shown there is no difference in safety between GMO and non-GMO.
If you run enough studies (especially with small sample sizes like the 40 studies shown) you will end up with some results that can show a certain result.
Just as an example, the first study quoted was with 36 mice. 18 male and 18 female. those were divided into 3 groups – control, non-GMO corn, GMO corn. So, the results showed some differences in organ weight for males on GMO corn. That is a group of 6 mice.Not so statistically significant. (aside from the fact that it is not necessarily bad for then to be larger mice)
The larger studies done have at least in the hundreds of animals. A much more statistically significant study.
Somehow the thousands of larger studies seem to be forgotten.
Also, not sure where your information on Europe bans are coming from but the EU released a paper in which they spent about 300 millions euros on studying the impacts for 10 years and said it is 100% safe.One more thing-scientists who designed viral vectors are aware of the potential dangers inherent in using viruses and have accordingly adapted these viruses for safe use. when viruses are used to deliver recombinant DNA, the real virus is not used. A special packaging cell containing viral proteins prepares a viral capsid with the DNA of interest inside – not the complete viral genome, just the components necessary for getting the DNA to where it needs to get. The virus is missing the essential genes to produce more of itself – it can only be made in the packaging cell. These fake virus particles are used to infect the target cell. The DNA of interest integrates into the target genome. Not the viral DNA, because it is not there. No new virus can be made, it’s a dead-end infection.
With all due respect to your grandfather, recombinant DNA technology has totally revolutionized research biology and made huge contributions to medicine (think insulin, growth hormone..) It is not the same field that it was 40-50 years ago.Having been in the food industry for over thirty years, I would file this thread under NARISHKEIT.
Whoa, Jersey Jew, you sound REALLY hostile when you say “you, yes you, are also a genetically modified organism?” I think that you’re using the term GMO differently than Josh (and I ) are here. How am I a GMO?
Do we really have to explain it to you? I don’t think there moderator will be happy if I really went into it for you.
Right, I am a hybrid of my mommy’s DNA and my daddy’s DNA. That’s not a GMO. I don’t think that anybody objects to, for example, a tomato that has been cross-bred from a plum tomato and a beefsteak tomato. But genetically engineering a tomato to contain DNA from a flounder? That can’t be right.
Mrs Plony , I don’t believe yo understand GMO’s. It’s not sed to crossbreed flounders and tomatos.
Take your example of plum and beefsteak tomatos. Let’s say that the plum tomato has a trait you want to incorporate ( disease resistance ) into the beefstake. Historically, farmers had to keep crossbreeding until he got lucky. GMO simply shortens the process .Halevai it should be that GMO’s are just to ‘shorten the process’. But if that were the case then there would be no controversy.
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