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Health, he is no longer alive. This was in an out of town kollel community and the kollel was involved in the geirus, so she certainly saw the kollel wives’ hair covered.
Health, I see no chilluk between thinking it is or is not a chumra.
Health “Until then my posts are the ending logic.” You sound pretty sure of yourself. Why are you the one to decide? You mean nobody else’s logic can be right? I don’t know if you saw my previous post, but I did say that I neither agree or disagree with you. (you had said that if I disagree with your posts, I should post a logical argument against them.)
So I am just wondering – If you saw a married woman who was born Jewish, and she was not wearing a sheitel (or any head covering), would you not consider her to be frum? Would you not consider her to be Jewish? I am talking about someone who does keep Shabbos, kashrus, etc. I don’t mean a frei person.
IMHO – if someone converts via a recognized orthodox conversion, that person is Jewish. Of course assuming he/she had the right intentions at conversion – ie: keeping the mitzvos. I know you will say that the woman you saw is not keeping the mitzvos because she isn’t covering her hair. There have been and are so many frum people who did not and don’t cover their hair. I don’t think it takes away from the fact that they are Jewish and frum.
Can you honestly say you keep every single mitzvah that you are supposed to? I don’t know if any of us can. That’s why there’s teshuvah. That’s why there’s the davening we have on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kipuur.
Gefen,
This is a halachic shaila, which has nothing to do with our perception of who’s “frum” and who’s not.
DaasYochid: Yes I hear you. But what I’m saying is I’m sure we don’t hold every halacha we are supposed to. Should we? Of course. But does it make one not frum or in the case of a giyores – not Jewish? I’m just trying to understand why she would not be considered Jewish. A Jewish (born Jewish) person who doesn’t hold all halachos is still considered Jewish.
And I learned that if someone is converted according to halacha, they are Jewish forever, even if they “convert back” to their original religion. See what I’m saying? That’s what’s confusing me.
Maybe you or someone can clarify this for me.
Gefen,
Halachic geirus requires kabolas mitzvos. If someone wishes to convert without accepting even one halacha, even one whose non-observance would not make his wine assur, his geirus is invalid. By definition, the geirus was not according to halacha.
DaasYochid: Ok. I get the part that if someone wishes to convert w/o even accepting one halacha, the geirus is invalid. But we really don’t know the whole story with this particular woman. Maybe it’s hard to take upon herself everything at once, but she does have intention to cover her hair eventually (if indeed it wasn’t really covered to begin with- as people mentioned- some sheitels are really hard to tell). If this is the case, then what would be the status of her geirus? Kosher or not?
BTW – this is quite an interesting topic.
What if someone says Ill convert but I wont give up Haagan Daas Ice cream (Not Chalov Yisroel) or Ill convert but I wont give up Football
Or Ill convert but I wont give up the internet or my smart phone(Gedolim have ruled smart phones and internet are assur)
Of course other communites dont hold by these
Zdad: I guess that might be different. I don’t think cholov yisroel is halacha. Nor is watching football, smart phones, and internet (which is what we are on right now ;))
However, covering hair is apparently halacha.
Gefen, as I’ve said, I believe the geirus is valid, but the shaila Health brought up is a legitimate shaila.
I don’t know how we pasken if a ger intended to eventually keep everything, just not immediately.
ZD,
On all of the issues. you raised, I think there are poskim who are meikil, so the geirus would be ok.
I know a giyoress who did not separate from her Jewish husband while she was supposedly going thru the conversion process, which was required of her, and the Rov doing the giyur believed they were indeed separated when they were supposed to be. . Is her conversion valid?
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