Giyoress or Not?

But there’s no halachic basis for rejecting converts who say they accept everything (and who have a sponsoring rabbi to vouch for their observance).<e/m>

First I thought you were saying we are supposed to accept as a ger anyone who “says” they will accept everything. That is obviously not correct.

But then you qualify by saying “and who have a sponsoring rabbi to vouch for their observance”, by which I suppose you are adding that we are supposed to also determine that they probably are going to actually accept everything.

So then we agree. And we should also agree that if a certain rabbi has been vouching for candidates and is obviously terrible at it based on his track record, we should stop accepting his vouchers.

Popa, well, theoretically if there was a mentor and every one of his gerim was filmed eating a cheeseburger at McDonalds the day after the conversion, then a beis din would stop taking gerim mentored by that mentor seriously. But of course nobody’s that bad. I think every beis din should consider each ger on a case by case basis. I suppose they could keep in mind the history of the mentor if in the unlikely event they have reliable information (not just rumors) about the gerim he’s mentored. Retroactive invalidation of all a mentor’s gerim should never occur. Individual gerim should never be “invalidated” unless it’s 100% clear they were flagrantly and publicly violating mitzvos (as generally practiced in their Orthodox community) immediately after conversion.

Aurora’s right. This kind of thread doesn’t belong in the CR. Who gave anonymous internet commenters the right to be armchair poskim trying making the world more difficult for gerim (who already have it hard enough as it is)? We should be very careful about the mitzvah not to oppress a ger, because gerim are more sensitive and often have difficult experiences in offline life as well.

Health – To quote one of your posts, “You should learn that there is a Chiyuv of Danning s/o L’caf Zecus.” So maybe be dan l’caf zechus this lady in the restaurant. Just sayin’…..

morahmom – “Sorry, but you’re wrong. Not that I myself hold that this is ok, but many women show some hair while covering the rest and it blends in. Trust me – you would never know.” I agree totally. Sometimes it is very hard to tell.

Another thing. Maybe this woman is just not comfortable covering her hair yet – IF she even plans to at all. But that’s really none of our business.

the practicality of this is very little so i do not know why even waste time with this but anyway

i think that we should try to look at it in a favorable manner

there is a story i heard that a MO couple was walking in a very charedi town in E”Y and a man threw bleach at her “for not wearing a wig” in a anger the husband took the very natural looking wig filled with bleach from his wife and threw it on the ground promising that she will never wear a wig again.

why do i mention this story? because it shows how natural wigs can be and maybe you are very sure but in the sake of favorable judgement i think you can say that maybe you saw wrong

That wasn’t even remotely all my point. (Ayein b”Rush Limbaugh, demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.)

My point was that surely Rabbeinu Tam would also recognize that Rashi Tefillin are fine and kosher. Yes, using the expression Karkafta etc was over the top, but saying that Rabbeinu Tam held that his zaida Rashi was not yotzei tefillin his entire life b’shogeg is almost equally absurd!!

I have confidence that our dear friend Popa, whose own absurdity I was responding to, understood the point I was trying to make.

It is not up to a beis din to be able to foretell the future or read minds. A person can in no way read minds, and if they purport to, they are not espousing Judaism.

It is up to beis din to witness the conversion and sign the teudah. Not to ensure that a person is observant. That is the ger’s responsibility. Once the ger leaves the mikvah, they’re Jewish.

And, we do not allow Reform and Conservative Jews to dictate halakha. According to your reasoning, that we don’t do something only because they do it, is silly and dangerous at once.

The Reform use ta’amei hamikra. We shouldn’t because they do? Come on now.

Health

“ready now -“Health- maybe the “husband” was converting too.”

Naw! Sorry! He looked and talked Jewish. (Not the language.)”

Maybe he is a BT or OTD on the way back who married her at some point and she is in the process of giyur? There are plenty of possible scenarios. Im not sure why you so strongly want to condemn people you don’t even know and have nothing to do with!

Popa, I don’t agree with the question. We’re never going to have reliable information on a beis din’s success rate in converting gerim who remain frum, and even if we did, we wouldn’t know if it’s due to their low standards, versus some other factor (like luck, or how the local community treats gerim). I do think, though, that gerim should stick with the major batei din (those on the RCA or rabbanut lists for example). Even so, gerim shouldn’t be punished for going to the “wrong” beis din — each ger should be considered on a case by case basis (discretely by rabbis — not on public forums by anonymous commenters.)

Health, review the Shulchan Aruch. The acceptance of mitzvah does not require, and never has, that the ger have 100% accurate knowledge about what all the mitzvos are and how exactly you follow them. If that were the case then we might as well give male gerim semicha at the same time we convert them! Ignorance about the current interpretations of one or more mitzvos does not indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos.

Furthermore, headcoverings are a special case, because many generations of pious Ashkenazim didn’t cover there hair, and this has continued to this day in some MO communities. So if a woman converts in one of those communities and right afterward marries and doesn’t cover her hair, it probably shouldn’t indicate she didn’t accept the mitzvos (unless, perhaps, the beis din discussed the issue with her and specifically told her it’s a mitzvah).

Now if she’s not covering her hair immediately after conversion in a community where all the women do cover their hair, that’s different, but because of the special history and status of this mitzvah, I’m hesitant to say it would necessarily indicate a lack of kabalas mitzvos. I’m also hesitant because I think it’s inappropriate for anonymous commenters to give halachic opinions on actual cases (such as the case discussed in this thread)! Determining whether a conversion was valid (and thus whether a gerus l’chumra is necessary for her or her children) is a very sensitive issue that should be handled discretely and privately (like the issue of mamzerim).

For example, Health, if one day your daughter wants to marry this woman’s son, then you can ask your Rov to discretely do some research and figure out whether the son is going to need to do a gerus l’chumra. Or if you’re approached about the possibility of a shidduch with him, then you can have the research done and say no if your Rov concludes the gerus wasn’t valid. There’s no reason to discuss this publicly.

Health: “Yes, I would have to do this if she was Jewish. The more I read all the posts here in her defense – the more I think she isn’t! Just sayin’….”

Could you explain what you mean by the more you read posts in her defense, the more you think she isn’t? I don’t understand. (I’m asking in all seriousness, I’m not trying to instigate anything or be provocative. I really don’t understand why the posts would make you think that)

Health- I did read your posts. Maybe I have to read them again. But could you just give me one example from any of the posts of what you mean by “Illogic”? Then maybe I can understand when I re-read the posts. Thanks.

Not exactly, Popa. As I suggested, even if we had such statistics, I don’t think they’d be very useful. Anyone reading our respective posts should be able to tell we disagree on a lot more than the feasibility of measuring gerim frumness.

Well, now you’re just confusing me. I think anyone reading our posts would have concluded that we do agree but for a system of measuring–up to this post where you are taking it all back. [

I guess we’ll just have to wonder.

dolphina – one person here makes an overly inappropriate and judgemental comment and most people are responding that he is out of line. And your response, “shame on everyone” If you’ll notice I was one of the first posts and I was also asking for it’s closure. Why do you insist on hatefully sweeping everyone into the same boat?

Maybe she is one of the lost tribes who is not consciously aware that she is a Jewish, and is undergoing conversion

Because some Jews who are Orthodox violate certain mitzvos and yet remain full Jews, does not in any way shape or form detract from the fact that a prospective convert who from the outset intends to not keep some of the same mitzvos that some Orthodox Jews fail to keep is and always remains a gentile as his conversion was never effective.

It is not mitzvah to cover your hair its part of being orthdox jewish women. According to any of the great lists of mitzvos of the rishnoim does it list covering your hair as one of them. I’m not questioning if it a mitzvah or not I just do not think it is a prerequisite to convert in order for a wman to cover their hair

DY: I think it is far more likely that Health simply wanted to start a debate about accepting geirim who may or may not end up keeping halacha.

And he succeeded admirably.

And I kind of also wanted to see that debate, because I will never skip an opportunity to make fun of the geirus clowns like Weiss and his ilk.

I was in NYC in a restaurant and I saw a Guy with a Yarmulka with his wife. He looked like a regular American clean shaven Frum Jew, but his wife (he told the waiter it was his wife) was Chinese. Let’s assume she was Megiyer acc. to Halacha and she keeps everything, but she didn’t have her head covered.

Is not covering your hair enough to say that it wasn’t a good Geyrus or not?

Do you ask these same questions of EVERY Jew? When will you stop making gairim stop PROVING their yiddishkeit?

Health “I don’t know what you’re getting at. If you disagree with my posts then post a logical argument against them. Until then my posts are the ending logic.”

I didn’t say I either agree or disagree with you. I was just trying to understand what you meant.

Now that this thread has gotten so long, I must be honest and say I haven’t had a chance to read most of it. So I really cannot comment on anything until (and if) I go through all the posts.