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If you see an old lady walking and she is walking with difficulty and you are alone (and a male)
Only a Chassid Shoteh would not give her a ride (assuming you know her, I understand not giving a stranger a ride, I would not give a stranger a ride)
I forgot about that story in the gemara. It also goes to R’ Sperbers point about how the charedim have moved to the right of Chazal. The gemara talks about how absurd it is for someone not to save a drowning naked woman, something that arguably concerns yeherag val yaavor, but yet charedi rabbis today assur volunteering in Magen Dovid even on a work day.
As in many other areas of tznius, there is a big difference between that which is assur, and that which depends on the sensitivities of people who are steeped in lives that embody tznius, and the concept of separation between genders.
Many people on this forum would approve of outright socialization with women; something that actually is assur – ‘ain shoalin beshalom ishah klal, afilu al yeday baalah’, is the gemara, rambam, tur and shulchan aruch. Many people from the previous generation grew up in houses where their parents met at mixed dances at Young Israel shuls; some of the people here, themselves, were involved with such things.
Under the banner of chesed, a lot of things end up being kashered. I often give hitches in boro park and flatbush(I actually travel along the bus route bedavka to find such people). I’ve been doing this for a very long time, and never have I been approached by a woman to be picked up – men have, on the other hand, put out their thumb when I slow down almost all the time.
The idea of indiscriminately being involved with the opposite gender, and an openness to such interaction, reflects an attitude towards tznius that is often shared by such individuals that refer to married women by their first name, spend time shmoozing with them, and are usually unaware of many other areas of halacha itself. While this is not assur, I do not believe any person raised or accustomed to the standards of tznius imparted to us from our gedolei yisroel would even consider approaching a strange woman.
Also, there is the issue of the woman’s safety(not the safety of being involved with strangers in general). A woman should not approach a car, no matter what – there’s no telling what sort of scum is lurking to harm her, clad in yeshivishe attire or otherwise. Women are simply more easily victimized than men are – although this is something that one of our posters probably does not accept, given her screename. She should take a survey of how many women would want to be in the army, or how many have learned martial arts – despite the feminist movement, a very, very small percentage of woman; almost negligible, consider themselves as physically strong as men.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned this until now.
Yichud isn’t a problem, the same way it’s not a problem when bochurim go out on dates; that’s not the issue here. It’s less of a problem than saying gut shabbos to women(something my relatives who are not so frum do not understand), because here there is a purpose. However, I do not believe that the average frum woman would appreciate it if a man offered her a ride; likewise, none of my friends in kolel that I can think of(including myself) would take a ride from a woman who is alone.
Just for the contrast; a few weeks ago I received a ride when beckoned by my chavrusa’s mother; a lady in her high 60’s – even if her husband was not in the car(which he was), I would not have objected – certain matters of tznius are simply up to a subjective sensitivity, depending on time and place – in our time and place, most of us would not think of it as even a possibility – however, not everyone’s sensitivity is valid. What was proper in the 50’s doesn’t really matter, because basic halacha itself was scarcely kept at that time.
Tznius is not the sort of thing you want to find kulos in – it is the defining characteristic of klal yisroel; so much so that it was that zchus that saved us from atzas bilaam – the zohar says that there was never a threat as real as that of bilaam’s curse; what saved us was ‘ma tovu ohalacha yaakov’, that there was a great separation and privacy between families. If not for pinchos being the kanoi he was, we would not be alive now; the magaifah would have destroyed everybody.
There is a time and place for kanoius; and the torah tells us unmistakably that it is in the area of tznius and kedushah. There is no halacha that one who is involved in stealing from the governmen may be killed; this is a grave sin, but the ‘online’ people seem to think that their kanous should be placed on such people; we see however, that ‘daas torah is hepech daas baalei batim’; the sensitivities of the people in the ‘online’ world are completely out of wack – any action of rabonim to promote tznius is seen as corrupt, extreme, etc.., this is the world we live in, and this website is no exception.
Brisker: Tznius is not the sort of thing you want to find kulos in – it is the defining characteristic of klal yisroel
and Brisker: Many people on this forum would approve of outright socialization with women; something that actually is assur..Many people from the previous generation grew up in houses where their parents met at mixed dances at Young Israel shuls….
Me: Is there an inherent contradiction saying that something the prior generation was not so machmir on is “the defining characteristic of klal yisroel”?
The ’50s American Orthodoxy was not so religious in many regards; and their lackings do not define Judaism.
Miami – that is not a contradiction; I’d appreciate it if you’d show a bit more seriousness about the issue. Tznius as a centerpiece of yiddishkeit is not up for discussion, and it is not dependent on what one era of uneducated and misguided Jews fell into.
It was very common for people to daven neitz on shabbos, and then go to work – does this mean that shabbos is not a core part of yiddishkeit?
Come on.
Mized dancing is not a chumra. Neither is socializing(although I am heistant to say them together, because some uneducated people here will reason that since they consider it so normal to shmooze, they will also think it’s ok to dance or touch them).
This is Modern Orthodoxy’s lack of education at its finest – the difference between MO and everyone else is not the past, but the present.
Being ‘machmir’ means that there is room to be ‘lenient’. There is no compromising on shulchan aruch.
Did you know that according to many rishonim, a man must give up his life rather than socialize with a woman? This seems to be an open gemara about a man who was deathly sick, and the doctors said he would die if he does not socialize with a woman – the chachamim said better he should die. Reb moshe does not understand the gemara to apply to general cases, but only this case – in any case, many rishonim hold that way, and that’s whatthe steipler writes in karyana deigrasa – that might be a ‘chumra’, because it is a machlokes.
Do you always qualify halachic opinions you share with a disclaimer “but other rabbis disagree”?
(i.e. “Don’t use the eruv in Flatbush. But other rabbis disagree.”)
Baloney. That’s what you’re hiding behind?
You could have said “some groups don’t allow women to drive” or “there are opinions that a woman shouldn’t drive.” The way you phrased it, it was clearly meant as an absolute.
If asked about the eruv, I would say “there are some people who don’t use the eruv” or “there are different opinions about it.” If you asked me what I, personally do, I would say “I don’t use the eruv, but there are many that do.”
(Cue the Joseph line that I’m a tazaddik and a lamed-vovnik…)
The Wolf
brisker 26 – you are 100% correct mixed dancing and schmoozing are totally different. most mo people know that. most people who wouldnt agree with that statement would be people who for example use to be chasidish and goes off the derech. they think once you do one thing you must go all the way.
wolfish musings – believe it or not many mo people would not use the eiruv. the eiruv in new york is not an eiruv that we can use. the people who would use it are the people who are OTD. for me i consider it breaking shabbos.
wolfish musings – believe it or not many mo people would not use the eiruv. the eiruv in new york is not an eiruv that we can use. the people who would use it are the people who are OTD. for me i consider it breaking shabbos.
I wasn’t commenting about the eruv one way or the other. I was addressing Joseph’s point that he didn’t mean his comment about women driving as being universal when he left it in a manner that clearly implied it.
The Wolf
Just to be clear. I understand that tzinuys is important and certain things it is intended to protect against are yeherag val yaavor. However, that is the fundamental question. What falls under the tzniyus umbrella (or as the discussion has veered, the niddah umbrella).
Remember, this thread is actually about giving women car rides, not mixed dancing, and presumably it is possible to do that without touching.
In any case, I do not agree with your absolute statements, but you are entitled to them.
Socializing as you point out is completely different, but yet originally you lumped them together in your post.
According to ramban and others, even hugging and kissing is assur only derabanan. So again, an issur derabanan can hardly be said to be the defining trait of judaism. Rambam says differently, but even rambam is generally understood to be talking about intimate touching.
As (almost) everyone in the US my age with any knowledge of torah knows, R’ Moshe said subway touching is ok, but handshakes he was uncomfortable with. But even R’ Moshe acknowledged that touching that is deemed by society as not to be affectionate might be ok, the question is what falls into that category, and many other issues. And I have already gone on too long.
Anyway, my point (and its a point others have made in other contexts) is that halacha has many viewpoints, so to come on here and make absolute statements, it would be preferable if you said “my opinion.”
That said, maybe I am being ridiculous. It is an internet board after all, so perhaps that it is your opinion is implied.
miami lawyer – touching is wrong no matter how it is. i may marry someone who doesnt keep shomer but i do and he wont be touching me the closet well get is me sitting next to him but nothing else not literally touching.
Sparkly: “miami lawyer – touching is wrong no matter how it is”
Me: That is your opinion. R’ Moshe and others (perhaps even the rambam depending on how your interpet his words)disagree.
But I acknowledge that some agree with you.
I think this new post summarizes all of the above so this conversation will continue without me as I think I am out of things to say, which almost never happens. Don’t celebrate too loudly that I am out of this one. 🙂
Sparkly: I am following the discussion. That is why I asked why it has gone far from the original question. Again what does an eiruv have to do with giving a woman a ride?
Ok, I cannot resist. I should have said bli neder.
@iacisrmma: To answer your question, it has nothing to do with the car ride question, but it was joseph’s example, that when you say something (he chose eruv), you don’t always say “some hold.”
After initially getting cranky about the point myself, I think I actually agree with Joseph on this (stop the presses). It is an internet board. It is not always necessary to qualify a post.
That said, if someone is saying something is assur (ie internet is assur), it is probably more fair to say “some hold..”
And to answer your earlier question about what a woman drowning had to do with it, arguably (perhaps a weak one), a woman out in a dangerous storm is also in safety jeopardy, which would justify her being picked up, just as the gemara approved saving a naked drowning woman (who otherwise, you obviously could not look at much less touch).
Joseph: Today’s Chumrah of the week club doesn’t define Judaism either. Remember, Chumrah and Chamor have the same shoresh. Things may have been a bit lax years ago, especially in lack of understanding in kashrus matters relating to food production, i.e. things like candies, etc.
We are probably headed back to those days, since certain subjects, like science, has been assured in many Chareidi schools. Without that knowledge, it’s back to the 50’s ignorance.
Have you noticed that Kashrut administrators that deal with food production mostly have University educations?
You need a university degree to verify kashrus? They spent four or eight years of their life in universities getting degrees in order to become a mashgiach?
This is egregious; almost all of what we follow in halacha daily, is derabonon – the spirit of shabbos, entirely is because of derabonon’s – without their takanos, it would be perfectly fine to go to work to make money, (provided you dont write) go shopping, listen to music on a mp3 player – everything you an imagine would be fine and dandy.
This shows a complete ignorance about what torah is – torah is only torah because of mesorah; chazal say this in many places “kara, shana, velo shimash, is an am haaretz’, people can know a lot of information(like our two women posters who seem to have read a lot of talmudic literature online, if you can call it that), but without a mesorah from the chachamim, all is an empty shell.
Shabbos is shabbos as we know it solely because of rabbinic rules; the same is true for tznius. If we were to consider these things to be derabonon(the same reb moshe who you quoted as allowing men and women to be on subways, also says that it’s a laav of lo sikravu to even have a girlfriend without touching, etc.., in an uncharacteristically strong teshuvah, where he uses expressions like ‘let me make myself abundantly clear’, etc..)
the profound difference, understood to a person who learns, as opposed to studies and reads facts, is that being on a subway engenders no real connection. incidental touching is a ‘misasek’, now, of course if you can avoid it, mah toiv uma naim; reb moshe does not say you should go out of your way to touch women on the bus by chooisng bedavka a crowded car.
I brought in the above (little known in the online velt) laws, to show how one can only appreciate certain extra-legal attitudes, which manifest into actions; tznius is something that anyone who is not immersed in torah today has a hard time grasping – we live in a society which prides itself on not being tznius at all – it takes a person who is untainted by such an environment, or at least one who makes a concerted effort to guard himself when he can, to understand these things.
Think, can you expect someone who exposes himself to such things, or was raised with(and did not grow out of) attitudes of permissiveness of all sorts of disgusting things(this is why i mentioned dancing, touching), to grasp the fine subtleties of tznius? it’s preposterous.
For the record, dancing, the mishnah berurah says, is ‘pashut’ that it’s assur, even though it didn’t say anywhere specifically – to a malaach like the chofetz chaim, tznius is a reality to which one can ‘feel’, not academic studies like those of women who are completely unaware of what it means to properly disect a sugya in gemara…the gemara they(sinfully) teach in their schools only makes them think they can understand it, when in reality, if you’d ask them a kasha on a tosfos, a diyuk in a rashi, or to analyze a reb akiva aiger, they wouldn’t have a clue what you are talking about.
The fact that someone here can question the prohibition of dancing with women proves my point; someone who is so far removed from the torah’s basic outlook cannot possibly begin to understand its subtleties.
just to answer the other ignorant remarks made in the other forum about doing chesed with goyim, reform, etc.., (I don’t have time or patience to post to two boards), I can bring the mareh mekmomos for the things ive quoted, but i simply did not want to invest the energy and time when there is only a slight chance that someone will take me seriously, or question their previously held, goyishe-influced opinions.
edited
The reason my posts seem ‘absolute’, is because I am referring to laws that are as absolute as the orbit of the planets, and as the rising of the sun. I do not consider clear, open chazals to be open for twisting and turning to conform to a licentious, ‘orthodox’ culture which is repulsed by tznius.
In Kelm, not a chasidishe town by any means, women and men walked on separate sides of the street. Once, a choson and kalah were caught walking together, and the Alter shried ‘s’brent a fire in kelm!’.
We’re not holding there; halevai we should keep basic halacha – but we aspire to such lofty heights, and whatever we can hold on to to the precous mesorah of yiddishe tznius, we must.
the kind of remarks frequently found on this website, comparing beautiful tznius to the taliban, etc.., are simply anti-religious.
Who said mixed dancing was up for discussion?
Brookyln is not Chelm
Even though many times it seems like it
Mod – I misread ‘lawyer’s statements about driving vs dancing; at first it sounded like she was saying that dancing can be done without touching; after I read it again now I see that was not the case.
zahava – and what is wrong if it would be? Is that to say that you believe them to be fanatics? For the record, Chelm was a chasidishe town, I am referring to Kelm.
Joseph: You missed the point. You don’t need a college degree to be a Mashgiach for most things. You do need science and math if you run a Kashrus organization that deals with manufacturing.
If nobody has that background, you’re back to the 50’s where most people ate candies and other things because nobody knew better.
The ’50s laxity in Torah observance was not a result of what you’re attributing it to. It was mostly a result of that before WWII there were not too many great rabbonim in America to lead such a large flock. There were a small number, themselves mostly having come here not too long before the war, but nowhere nearly sufficient to lead so many American Jews back to the path of proper observance. Post-WWII, with the influx of the remnants of the deeply Torah observant surviving European communities arriving on these shores with some great rabbonim who built up yeshivos and the building of the Jewish infrastructure to bring strict Torah observance to the American masses of what truly turned it around.
and what is wrong if it would be? Is that to say that you believe them to be fanatics? For the record, Chelm was a chasidishe town, I am referring to Kelm
I think the comparison of Brooklyn vs Chelm went over your head.
Chelm is well known in jewish folkore
Joseph: Again you miss the point on why an education is important for Chareidim.
Barry, chareidim are far far more educated than non-chareidim. In the things that are important.
False. A Chareidi lifestyle is not inherently superior to a non-Chareidi lifestyle. There are plenty of people out there who are halacha observant but not Chareidi. If you want to say that those who don’t observe halacha are missing out on what’s “important,” fine, but regarding hashkafic differences among halacha-observant populations (of which there are many), one is not inherently better than the other.
@joseph, not necessarily according to certain of Chazal
“Whoever does not teach his son a trade… it is as though he has taught him to steal.” (Kiddushin 29a)
“Any Torah that is not accompanied by work, will end in neglect [of Torah] and will lead to sin.” (Avos 2:2)
I know what chelm is understood to be in the stories, jokes, etc.., it did not occur to me that you would say something of such deep, sad laitzonus, to say that people who are tzniusdig are fools, like the supposed fools of chelm.
the alter of kelm was one of the gedolei hador, and you just totally insulted him. shame on you!!
Joseph: So math and science is not important to you, I guess. Also, Gemmoroh aside,( and that is subject to question) most Chareidim do not have a well rounded education even in Torah subjects.
I have never needed to calculate the volume of a cylinder.
@brisker26 so off topic but im a girl that took karate lessons
miami lawyer – your not religous and thats why you will disagree with me. i know my rabbi may say its okay to touch which is why the guys dont keep shomer. but i do because i think its wrong. but i wont argue and therefore if my guy does not keep shomer then i will still go out with him but not touch him. at least ill know he doesnt want me for my body he wants me for me.
barrys- everyone needs a good education no matter how religious you are.
joseph – not necessarily. there are people who might study Torah just for the fun of it but not actually believe in it.
reb yidd – neither have i and i have taken many chem lab classes. you need to know how to measure a cylinder NOT calculate it.
sady girly girl – for many girls who take karate lessons (also including guys) are considered mo.
@sparkly. my world view, whether it be politics, religion, anything is that generally, both extremes are wrong and somewhere in the middle is reasonable. Obviously, this cannot be applied to everything. Some things are black and white.
Anyway, of course you can always be more strict than your rabbi permits. No one disputes that just because something might be ok according to your rabbi means you have to do it.
If you’re shomer negiah, dating someone who isn’t is a huge mistake. One partner keeps this halacha and the other doesn’t. It’s a big michshol.
dovrosenbaum – why is that? so your saying that i should stop keeping shomer because the guy i marry doesnt keep shomer?
I can’t imagine how it’s possible for a couple to be “half and half” without one of them changing sides, and the non shomer (halacha) is probably more likely to win the debate.
I suggest you marry someone who keeps halacha fully and who is a ben torah.
A guy who is not shomer is not a ben torah.
Sparkly: “dovrosenbaum – why is that? so your saying that i should stop keeping shomer because the guy i marry doesnt keep shomer?”
How exactly did you came to this conclusion?
Sparkly – she said it’s a michshol – that means a “stumbling-block”, meaning she is concerned that you might stop being shomer if you go out with a guy who is not! That is the whole issue -she does NOT think you should stop being shomer -that is the point!!!
lilmod ulelamaid – so maybe if i got help from a shadchan then i wouldnt have to worry about making my own shidduch. plus the shadchan doesnt like setting girls up with doctors. so ill go find my own doctor even if he doesnt keep shomer. so then he wont touch me. big deal. and if still wants to touch me then i guess his not for me. Hashem will find me someone else.
sparkly, did you come from bronx?
Sparkly, try reading what you just posted, think about it, and then resubmit it, because it doesn’t make much sense.
Why do you davka want to marry a doctor? You like the idea of big bucks? Why not a guy with semicha?
bk613 – why doesnt it make sense?
Syag Lchochma – why are you asking if im from bronx?
dovrosenbaum – not for the money. real estate and business can make much more money than doctors. its because the doctors are smart. i love science and math and want someone smart who also loves science and math. i want a guy thats smarter than me. im becoming a pharmacist and feel like doctors are smarter than pharmacist even tho pharmacist are also very smart but doctors are even smarter. i want a guy who gets straight a in sceince and math and knows everything about science and math.
If she wants to marry a doctor what is so bad. The only problem is until he graduates and finishes his residency he is 27 and in debt to the tune of $3-500,000.00 in student loans, unless he has rich parents.
When is she marrying him? Before he graduates she may have to support him. During residency they work him half to death so I doubt he will have time to date. After finishing residency he is 28 going on 30. He will be working multiple jobs in order to pay off his student loans.
Just remember with Obama Care there is a limit to how much a doctor can earn and likewise there is a limit on how much a pharmacy can charge which will effect future earning.
Why do you davka want a guy who is smarter than you?
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