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Lechora there should be a problem of dina demalchusa dina and you shouldn’t be allowed to give alcohol to minors
however according to american law alcohol is permitted in case of religion so there should be no problem with giving alcohol to minors
espesially minors who are above the yideshe adult age of thirteen
and especially if the drinking is being controled by a rebbi or parent
for example my son goes to his rebbis hous year after year and he gets plastered each year but i know that he is being looked after by other bachurim and his rabbeim. And kenain ehara no harm has yet befallen him
acording to my experiens only dagerous things happen when there is no one watching the minor
Just for the record re: women reciting the zimun over the wine being a “disgraceful matter,” disgraceful matter does not necessarily mean something is assur. Personally, I wouldn’t seek to do it, but there are many opinions by some rabbonim that something is not so appropriate for a woman to do, but it is not intrinsically assur. Many rabbonim hold women should not drive, but they cannot actually asser it. I am perfectly content to let the guys make the mezuman, but I have heard of women eating together in a zimun and bensching that way.
Those JOFA style feminist rebels do such things.
PArdon my ignorance – What is JOFA? Oh wait, never mind, I think I figured it out. Is there really such a group?
Yes there is such a group as JOFA. But that’s for a separate thread. they’re the ones pushing women’s laining, women’s prayer groups, women dancing with the Torah, women rabbis, etc.
Wolf needs neither my defense nor my haskamah. However, I would like to point out that I once had a job where my employer gave specific permission for me to use the internet whenever I had nothing pending. And there were several occasions of downtime during that job.
Some employers permit personal stuff on “work time,” and others don’t. And perhaps Wolf is self-employed. I don’t know whether he is or isn’t, but I wouldn’t presume he’s a ganif when there are so many legitimate reasons he can be in the CR while “at work.”
Is there a real issur on women davening together in a group, or leining? I know it is not assur for us to touch a Sefer Torah, so what is the problem about dancing with it (separate from men watching them, of course)?
The women’s rabbi thing is a whole ‘nother issue altogether, and I am sure most frum people would agree about that subject, in spite of the “rabbah” title some would like to confer on a learned woman. My feeling is, you can label an apple as an orange, but at the end of the day it was, is, and always will be an apple. The title Rabbi specifically normally refers to a male who because of his intense learning and understanding of Torah, has received smicha, and who then hopefully will impart his learning to others. A female who is equally learned as he, (and there are such women) is still a female, and cannot be a rabbi. (I would rather she be known as a talmidat chacham. But nobody asked me and the decision is not mine to make).
Bump
anyone who gives alcohol to a minor on Purim should be arrested – no difference in my opinion then a child molester.
only a monster, and bihaima would give a minor to drink.
I am not referring to parents giving their own children to drink under their own supervision at their own purim seudah in their own home….
i am referring to people who just pour booze to any kid who walks through their door collecting.
No one shld give alcohol to ANYONE even a ADULT it is very dangerous let them way till the get home. My bros r 18+ and parents always say the same thing “drink as michas u want when ur home andnothing until…”!! The safest thing my bros b”H kept safe over Purim
every kid over 4 should drink. its mehudar if they smoke too.
Toi, I’m not sure I want to know what the mehadrin min hamehadrin is.
toi- this isnot a joking matter its serious no no and no!!!!!! so dangerious i dont know if your married or have kids but i think if you dont then youll realize this when you do HOPEFULLY
DY- i tried, the mods wouldnt let (jk)
superme-im married with kids. having negius doesnt change the halachah!
I read the comments on this thread again, and there is one thought that comes to mind. I totally believe that those who wish to be permissive about drunkeness for minors have engaged in the process of this determination backwards. First, they established their goal of permitting it, then they looked for a way to pervert the words of the poskim who are the guides for our generation to support that. A Posek does not do that. He investigates the subject with an open mind, and reaches the conclusion that the poskim conclude.
Since I consider the shikrus that some wish to claim as a mitzvah as an absolute aveiro, I questioned myself whether I was also guilty of holding a particular psak prior to studying the sugya. Several things became apparent. One, that there is ample misunderstanding of what ad delo yoda means. Next, that the fact that some people can get very drunk without negative consequences is accepted as a model for others. Next, that some people glorify the state of intoxication, and thus judge the Torah as somehow making this, at the very least, a one time mitzvah. I find these observations frightening. Has anyone from the “permissive” camp brought the question to a Posek that understands the ramifications of excessive alcohol in minors?
@The little I know – the real question is why “minors” have any relevance in halacha assuming it is permissible by law for religious reasons. In many batei midrashim the practice of getting drunk has become widely accepted and the rebeim and rashei yeshivos are in favor of it. High school students are another issue entirely which I dont want to get involved in (ie they dont understand how to get drunk in a safe way) we are talking about 19-20 year olds here. Since many rosh yeshivos are in favor of it it is better to be melamed zchus than to try to decide halacha based on our imperfect knowledge of halacha. The question really should be at what age is it safe to let bochurim drink and i dont think the arbitrary age the government set should have anything to do with it.
Jbaldy22,
Nice to see you(r SN).
I think people are forgetting that the minhag clearly has been to take ad d’lo yada pretty literally. Some very big gedolim were noheg this way (others weren’t, but the ones who were had bigger yeshivos).
As the generations have deteriorated, the question has become whether those who can drink responsibly should stop doing so in order not to set a bad example for those who aren’t responsible, and whether it would help. I don’t know the answer to this question; there seem to be supporters for both positions.
I belive that if you serve Alcohol to a minor and someone is hurt, YOU can be sued.
So if Alcohol is served by a yeshiva on Purim and a Bocher gets drunk and drives and hurts someone, the Yeshiva can be sued.
Also if Alcohol is served at your house and you give a minor alcohol , YOU can be sued if they drink and drive
@zahavasdad in the yeshiva i went to they had designated drivers to drive people around and those drivers were not allowed to drink. I believe that is standard practice in lakewood these days.
I dont know who is repsonsible if someone get Alcholic posioning
(A BAC Level over .02% can lead to alcholic posining which can lead to severe medical shock or death)
they might be better off with a policy of designated drinkers.
Forget about driving, what happens if a kid gets sick?
For those interested in a facinating, lomdishe discussion of the various shittos cited in this thread( together with halachos pertaining to yayin and shikrus in other contexts)may i recommend a piece contained in Rav yitzchk Mirsky’s sefer HAGYONAI HALACHA chailek shaini entitled “ad d’lo yadah”
jbaldy22:
I am surprised at an assumption in your comment. The law does not hint to permitted drunkeness at any age or with religion as an excuse. Rather it seeks to place responsibility to prevent alcohol use by someone who is less likely to know limits for safe drinking. From the problems among adults, which are even frightening for frum community, it is crtical to insure that young people do not go down that path.
As far as rabbeiim and roshei yeshivos being in favor of shikrus, I beg to differ. Most are not agreeable to it, and actually find this trend abhorrent. You are correct that there are those who turn a blind eye, and do not prevent it.
One of the major yeshivos in Brooklyn has paid security guards by the doors on Purim night. They are bouncers to stop those already drunk from entering, and they search entrants to be sure they are not bringing in more alcohol or drugs.
Lastly, no government cares about Purim to write legislation about it. The laws about alcohol and minors is as relevant and needed for the gentile as for the Jew. I would hope that all Yidden, everywhere, and of all ages, exercise good judgment in drinking on Purim, and refrain completely from the shikrus that is dangerous, and certainly not the halacha of ad delo yoda.
My rule is such, If anyone under 21 asks me for a drink at a simcha or elsewhere I will tell them, I will not give them anything unless their parents tell me directly its ok.
If I have teenagers as guests and their parents arent at the table, I will serve ONLY grape juice even for Kiddush,
@The little I know – the reason i said to assume it is legal is not because i assume that – its just that i dont believe that the legal aspect is at all relevant in the question and i dont want to get sidetracked by it. Also I hate to tell you this but I have happen to have spoken to many rebbeim in many yeshivos over the years and i did not hear even one who is not in favor of it. To the contrary many told me that I was obligated to get drunk. I am not going to say that there arent ways to be mikayem your chiyuv without that as you have seen from the spirited discussion previously on this thread (I myself always take a nap after the seudah). My main point was simple – that the arbirtrary age of 21 has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is ok or not for bochurim to drink. I am sure that there are a minority of rebbeim and/or roshei yeshiva who differ – but if you have ever spent purim in lakewood you would understand my view a bit more.
My rule is such, If anyone under 21 asks me for a drink at a simcha or elsewhere I will tell them, I will not give them anything unless their parents tell me directly its ok.
That makes sense.
If I have teenagers as guests and their parents arent at the table, I will serve ONLY grape juice even for Kiddush,
That’s going way overboard.
when i have bochrim, i pour. one or two shots a bochur. they wont grab the bottle and chug your booze. problem solved, without being ocd.
when i have bochrim, i pour. one or two shots a bochur. they wont grab the bottle and chug your booze. problem solved, without being ocd.
Or making them go otd.
I hope Zdad doesn’t know your ID, he might have you arrested.
TOI:
And you also teaching them something that is shelo kedin. There is absolutely NO mitzvah or minhag to drink spirits other than wine on Purim. Such imbibing is only for the purely gashmiyusdig goal of shikrus, which has nothing to do with Purim. This has been repeated countless times by poskim of our generation and many previous generations. Pouring shots is thus nothing more than encouraging kids to get drunk and is assur without question. Being the adult who does this is being machati others, and should not be done at all. There is a major task of teshuvah for being such a baal aveiro. My Rosh Yeshiva poured and gave wine, which he stopped many years ago when the drinking became problematic.
When I have Bochrim for Shabbos, I treat them they way I would want others to treat my own children.
I will have no part of corruption of a minor. Call it a Chumra if you like
TLIK,
Was Toi talking about Purim?
There’s no mitzvah to eat coleslaw either. I still think it’s fine to serve it.
ZD,
Giving an ounce of wine from kiddush is not corruption of a minor. C’mon, be real.
Dinah d’malchuisah dinah. In the state of NY it is assur to serve alcohol to a minor. Kiddush is an exception and it is a small amount, plus no one is driving after making kiddush. Purim has become an excuse for kids to get smashed and wasted, some disgustingly so, and it has caused many an emergency, not to mention horrific Chillulei Hashem. That is NOT what our Gedolim had in mind.
Dinah d’malchuisah dinah.
There are very specific ways in which that halachic rule is used. This is probably not one of them. I agree with the rest of your post.
In the state of NY it is assur to serve alcohol to a minor. Kiddush is an exception and it is a small amount, plus no one is driving after making kiddush.
Really? Is there an exception for kiddush?
There is an exception if you are the parent or guardian–then you are allowed to give whatever you want.
There is also an exception if it is for instructional purposes in a school as part of a curriculum–I’m not sure purim in yeshiva counts, but I’d sure argue it.
A person is guilty of unlawfully dealing with a child in the first degree when: […]
2. He gives or sells or causes to be given or sold any alcoholic beverage, as defined by section three of the alcoholic beverage control law, to a person less than twenty-one years old; except that this subdivision does not apply to the parent or guardian of such a person or to a person who gives or causes to be given any such alcoholic beverage to a person under the age of twenty-one years, who is a student in a curriculum licensed or registered by the state education department, where the tasting or imbibing of alcoholic beverages is required in courses that are part of the required curriculum, provided such alcoholic beverages are given only for instructional purposes during classes conducted pursuant to such curriculum.It is no defense to a prosecution pursuant to subdivision two of this section that the child acted as the agent or representative of another person or that the defendant dealt with the child as such.
I am no lawyer, but a child saying kiddush in Shul (If your shul says kiddush) is probably legal even if the parent is not there.
A priest can administer the sacraments in church which include drinking some wine, so the law is probably similar in shul.
Maybe there is, maybe there isnt for a sip of wine at kiddush legally in NY. And it probably isnt a big deal. I just choose to be safe rather than sorry and use grape juice. Its Kosher for Kiddush. and it avoids the question of “MORE”
Popa, obviously when I spoke of Kiddush, I was referring specifically to a parent giving a child alcohol-type Kiddush (wine only as opposed to grape juice, but never schnapps or the like). I should have said that more implicitly. My father O”H used to give us wine that was diluted with grape juice, in a tiny kiddush cup.
Apropos of your penal code quote, is it not also unlawful to serve alcohol to a minor who is at a party in your home?
Here’s some caselaw (from 2010) about hosting parties where minors have access to alcohol and drink it.
In this case, they hosted a party for their daughter, where a bunch of kids were drinking, and they were aware the kids were drinking.
If the Legislature wishes to criminalize the knowing passive hosting of parties at which alcohol is served to minors, it certainly may and probably ought to do so.”
People v. Heil, 28 Misc. 3d 215, 224, 900 N.Y.S.2d 624, 631 (City Ct. 2010)
This accords with a NYS appellate court from 2006 which stated that “t is thus clear that any offense contemplated under section 65 is directed against commercial vendors and distributors of intoxicants and not against individuals in their own homes”. People v. Taxin, 11 Misc. 3d 45, 46, 812 N.Y.S.2d 224, 225 (App. Term 2006). But see People v. Himmel 252 A.D.2d 273 (App. Term 1999) (defendant was liable for providing alcohol to minor in his own home, where he also raped her afterward).
Its Kosher for Kiddush.
That’s actually debatable, since our grape juice has chemicals which inhibit fermentation. There is whom to rely on to be lenient. Also, even if it were unpreserved juice, it is preferable to use wine. So your chumra is actually a kula.
There’s a simple answer to “more”. “No”.
oomis: So then if your son has friends from yeshiva for shabbos, will you not give them a little cup of kiddush wine?
Or suppose your son is married to a woman who is 20, will he not give her a little bit of kiddush wine? How about under the chuppah? How about at sheva brachos?
There is criminal and then there is CIVIL penalties. Giving Alcohol to a minor and then something happens makes the supplier liable for the damage
A priest can administer the sacraments in church which include drinking some wine, so the law is probably similar in shul.
I’ve been searching for such an exception, and not finding it. I think everyone just knows that the law is stupid and overinclusive, and so everyone just knows to ignore it.
Wine Under the Chuppa would probably fall under the same category as sacraments in church especially if given by the Rabbi
Now this is why i didnt want to get involved in the legal status. No one has been prosecuted (to my knowledge) on purim recently for this. The police is well aware of it and they are not interested in getting involved. There is also the question of whether such laws would even be legal because of religious freedom although employment division v. smith probably would if the present supreme court considers that precedent. None of the case law that has been cited has anything to do with religious freedom probably because catholics would run afoul of this with First Communion as would many other religions im sure. Either way its irrelevant – if there is a chiyuv for minors to drink wine – there is no dina dmalchusa plain and simple (even if dina dmalchusa applied in this case – which it doesn’t).
Wine Under the Chuppa would probably fall under the same category as sacraments in church especially if given by the Rabbi
Find that exception and we’ll talk about it. I don’t believe it exists.
PBA
During Prohibition there was an exception for wine for religious use so wine for Kiddush or the sacraments was legal.
In fact many jews got into the wine business “for Kiddush reasons”
PBA
The US cosntitution trumps NY law and there is a freedom of religion clause. There was a case with Peyote (A hallucenagen taken by some Indian religions for hundreds of year) that the supreme court ruled illegal and congress re-wrote the law for such uses
ZD, the Prohibition Amendment clearly spelled out religious exemptions, so it was not necessary to go to the First Amendment.
As far as underage drinking, the First will not help. Religion may trump some laws, but it doesn’t trump personal safety laws.
This law would not be unconstitutional, since it is of general applicability and is for a good societal purpose. It is governed by the case with Peyote that you reference, where the court said that the states could make it illegal (or deny unemployment benefits, as the case was).
You can read the case on page 872 of volume 494 of the United States Reporter.
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