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“MO started by followers of The Rav”
I would say anyone who is a talmid of the Rav is MO.
“no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions”
or what others expect them to be.
Just because some people excuse thier indiscretion by saying “Oh I am MO” doesn’t make them MO.
I know some yeshivish and some chassidish people who go mixed swimming “on vacation.” Does that mean they are MO? Of course not!
Rav Soloveitchik is one of the pillars of MO.
EDITED
*****no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions
If you saw a person with a streimel you would say he’s from the chassidic sect (not exactly saying he’s a chassid)
So, if I wear a leather kippah or a knit kippah, it means that I have to have certain beliefs and actions?! Are you saying that it’s not possible to wear a knit kippah and have the same hashkafos and actions as a “yeshivish person?”
The Wolf******
“indication”
“indication”
Ah. Apparently wolves can’t read. 🙂
OK, let’s rephrase then…
… if I suddenly start wearing a streimel, does that automatically make me a chassid?
The Wolf
thank you R. Moderator, you portrayed what i was trying to explain perfectly.
“… if I suddenly start wearing a streimel, does that automatically make me a chassid?”
i didn’t think i needed to explain this but i guess i do.
if a goy started to wear a yarmulke does that make him jewish?
no but if people saw him they would automatically assume (incorectly of course) that he’s jewish
there’s an old saying, the clothes make the man
how do you make a quote italicized?
WolfishMusings
Shifting from MO to chasiddih doesn’t happen instant, so If you suddenly decide to put on a shtreimel I would say that something is wrong with you.
“So, if I wear a leather kippah or a knit kippah, it means that I have to have certain beliefs and actions?! Are you saying that it’s not possible to wear a knit kippah and have the same hashkafos and actions as a “yeshivish person?”
The Wolf “
If you were wearing a Yankees T-Shirt would it indicate with certainty that you were a Yankees fan and hate the Mets?
Not with certainty, however it would be pretty hard to convice people otherwise. Why would you be wearing such a unifrom.
The same with a yarmulka to some extent. Why would someone wear a kippah serugah if they did not identify with the group that wear kippot serugah?
Why would someone specifically not wear a velvet yarmulka if they considered themselves akin to the black velvet wearing group?
A yarmulka is used to identify a person as a Jew (even if that is not the purpose of wearing a Yarmulka, it is used as such by others). Which yarmulka you use to identify yourself certainly says alot about what type of jew you want to be identified as. To claim otherwise is the same as wearing a team t-shirt and sayong that you do not identify with that team. It maybe so, but you would be hard pressed to make a believable case.
And the yarmulka itself (Assuming that it covers the head and is not initself a joke, i.e. with a picture of Bart Simpson mooning someone) is not better or worse than the next (two layers is a difference though according to many). But each person has to attach themselves to a kahal, individual service is far from the optimum this is but another way of indicating your attachement and belonging with a specific kahal.
******”indication”
Ah. Apparently wolves can’t read. 🙂
OK, let’s rephrase then…
… if I suddenly start wearing a streimel, does that automatically make me a chassid?
The Wolf ******
“indication”
“WolfishMusings
Shifting from MO to chasiddih doesn’t happen instant, so If you suddenly decide to put on a shtreimel I would say that something is wrong with you”
Rather than figuring that this was after introspection and thought that the person changed what he wears on his head? Every change is sudden, one day it is one way, the next it is different. What do you expect, the person should alternate between a leather yarmulka and a shtreimel so that it will not be sudden?
If I see someone wearing a shtreimel on Tuesday and a knit yarmulka on Shabbos and a painted leather yarmulka on YK, I will know it is someone who is concerned that Wolf will think him crazy.
… if I suddenly start wearing a streimel, does that automatically make me a chassid?
It does not make you anything, but at first glance I would think you a Chassid.
At second glance I would wonder at your long hairy snout, at what big eyes you have, and then remembering what I learned from the Brothers Grimm, I would not be fooled at all.
i don’t know why my post wasn’t put in but everyone is saying what i wanted to (which might explain it)
All your posts are up. Send it in again if missing.
Jose
So what do you think Wolfish meant by the word “Suddenly”?
now i see it thanks
We seem to have veered off the topic of judging people and not caring what we each consider ourselves to be, which it is not even necessary to inquire about. The point is which box others put us in, according to who THEY judge us to be. So by not even seeing us or knowing us, by just reading our comments and our opinions, many of you have labeled us MO, Yeshivish, Chareidi, Chasidish for no reason at, especially when labels are completely unnecessary.
So by not even seeing us or knowing us, by just reading our comments and our opinions, many of you have labeled us MO, Yeshivish, Chareidi, Chasidish for no reason at, especially when labels are completely unnecessary.“labels” define why you write what you write.
a yeshivish person won’t write what a MO would
If you start wearing a shtreimel, it doesn’t make you chassidish. But if you would absolutely love the shtreimel look, you wouldn’t wear it either, because Chassidim wear shtreimlech.
That proves that we are categorized by our clothing. When I walk down the streets, I see what people wear and according to that I figure where they belong.
A different story is if someone doesn’t live up to their dress code…
mbachur, labels do nothing more than label you for purposes of putting you in a box for the convenience of others. Studies have shown that when schools label children those labels can stick to those children for the rest of their lives even if the child outgrows their issues. And the child is most likely to adjust more to the label than vise a versa at that time. In other words, “if they think I’m not capable then why should I try, I will just be the dummy they think I am.”
Labeling people only serves to justify YOUR OWN opinion of them and not necessarily verify who they really are. So for instance, the levush between a chassidish person on Shabbos is different than other sects and that is obvious. But when at work, a chassidish yungerman and a yeshivish yungerman who both have a beard and might have their peyos tied up behind their ears or under their yarmulka or cap, and both have a white shirt and black pants might be harder to distinguish. A Heimish man at work and a MO man both wearing blue shirts and caps might not look different until you see their yarmulka. A Heimish man who wears a leather yarmulka and an MO man who wears a leather yarmulka can’t be differentiated. And what is the point? They are all equally frum and follow the same Torah and Taryag mitzvos. So why do they need to be labeled? And why the need for this loshon horah. No it is not true that MO watch TV on Shabbos. Let’s put an end to that discussion. It is simply not true. If there are people who do that, and they happen to be MO, they are making up their own rules and they must have left the TV on before shabbos and do not change the channel just watch the same channel whenever they go into the room where the TV is on. NO that is not Shabbosdik behavior and neither is swimming on Shabbos which I have seen some Chassidim do in Miami, but that doesn’t mean that ALL Chasidim go swimming on Shabbos.
I have also seen many Chassidish women walk around the Pool area and even walk from the pool to the beach in their bathing suits without cover-ups in Maimi. Does that mean that it is acceptable among Chassidim for women to do that? Or for women to go mixed swimming in Miami? NOOOOOOOOO! But that doesn’t stop them from doing it when they are away from their daled amos! Is it fair to say that they look down upon us as if WE were goyim and they think it is ok to behave this way in front of goyim? That is the problem with LABELING!
If you start wearing a shtreimel, it doesn’t make you chassidish. But if you would absolutely love the shtreimel look, you wouldn’t wear it either, because Chassidim wear shtreimlech.
Why not? Is there some rule that says that it’s assur for a non-Chassid to wear a streimel? If I truly loved the streimel look (which I don’t), then I would wear it, regardless of my hashkafah.
That proves that we are categorized by our clothing.
No, it does not.
The Wolf
mbachur, labels do nothing more than label you for purposes of putting you in a box for the convenience of others
in other words it explains why people write what they write a yeshivish person won’t write what a MO person would
There are certain circumstances where labeling is very helpful (like in a chat room) i totally agree you shouldn’t label kids in school.
But when at work, a chassidish yungerman and a yeshivish yungerman who both have a beard and might have their peyos tied up behind their ears or under their yarmulka or cap, and both have a white shirt and black pants might be harder to distinguish.
Yeshivish yungermen don’t have peyos sooooo long that they can tie them under their yarmulka or cap it only stays as long to put them behind ones ears
I have also seen many Chassidish women walk around the Pool area and even walk from the pool to the beach in their bathing suits without cover-ups in Maimi. Does that mean that it is acceptable among Chassidim for women to do that? Or for women to go mixed swimming in Miami? NOOOOOOOOO! But that doesn’t stop them from doing it when they are away from their daled amos! Is it fair to say that they look down upon us as if WE were goyim and they think it is ok to behave this way in front of goyim? That is the problem with LABELING!
as i’ve said before to wolfish if I see someone wearing a streimel iwould assume the person is chassidish (not exactly a chassid though)
“Why would someone wear a kippah serugah “
Because someone they care about MADE it for them???? Because their kippah fell in the mud and the only one available was that one? BEcause they like the look and comfort of it (more lightweight thana suede or velvet one)? Any number of reasons. A kippah is a kippah (and my husband and sons wear suede).
…if I see someone wearing a streimel iwould assume the person is chassidish (not exactly a chassid though)
I think most people would.
Wolf, if you put on a shtreimel I would assume you converted to Chassidishism as opposed to putting it on because you like the look.
lesschums, Rav Hirsch was the antithesis of MO, as Rav Hirsch’s succesor Rav Schwab explained. Austritt is vital.
“I think most people would”
most people would what (i don’t know if youre agreeing or disagreeing)
“Why would someone wear a kippah serugah “
I wear it for the specific purpose of showing that I am of those who recognize the Hand of G-d in the Jews re-gaining sovereignty over the Land of Israel and the victory of the Six Day War.
mbuchar, most people would assume, when they see a person wearing a shtreimel, that he is Chassidish.
Wolf, if you see someone in a streimel, do you wonder if he’s chassidish, litvish, MONTH, or perhaps a non jew?
Why do you automatically think of him as Chassidish?
Helpful:
“Austritt” just means the community is separated from the reform and conservative. (as opposed to a joint community with the Reform).
Not sure why current “Frum Working” Yidden don’t comply with this requirement? Almost all Yerayim agree (with very few exceptions) that they are separate from the other non Yerayim communities.
Please help me understand.
Wolf, if you put on a shtreimel I would assume you converted to Chassidishism as opposed to putting it on because you like the look.
And that would be a fair assumption. But it was said earlier that I wouldn’t wear one even if I liked the look. My sole point was to argue that point. There’s nothing that says that it’s forbidden for a non-Chassid to wear a streimel. So, if I liked the look, I would wear it.
That people seeing me would assume that I was chassidish is certainly understandable.
The Wolf
But it was said earlier that I wouldn’t wear one even if I liked the look.
That’s precisely why one and all would think you became Chassidish if you put on a shtreimel.
WolfishMusings said:
“There’s nothing that says that it’s forbidden for a non-Chassid to wear a streimel. So, if I liked the look, I would wear it.”
Hard to beleive. Not everything that makes sense logically is done in reality. Even a person that is very logical but is still within the range of “normal” which I beleive you are, wants to feel comfortable with their appearence.
Hard to beleive.
Why? Why is it so hard to believe that if I really liked the look, that I would wear one even if I weren’t a chassid. After all, that’s what the scenario was predicated on — that I really like the look (and hence I’d be comfortable with it).
The reality is that I don’t particularly like it for myself, but if I did, I don’t see why not?
The Wolf
WolfishMusings said:
“that I really like the look (and hence I’d be comfortable with it).”
NO – These 2 are not connected . You can like the look of it, but you wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing outside
This has gone way off topic, but Charmers-Jeruslamites, where Shtreimels at the age of Bar Mitzvah. BTW, Wolf, I would suggest trying the Shtreimel for a few weeks, you never know you might get loads of compliments!
BTW, Wolf, I would suggest trying the Shtreimel for a few weeks, you never know you might get loads of compliments!
Ah, thanks, but no.
Aside from the fact that I have no desire whatsoever to wear a streimel, I can’t afford one. I have lots of other things to spend my money on (tuition, bills, tzedaka, photography equipment, etc.) before spending it on a streimel.
NO – These 2 are not connected . You can like the look of it, but you wouldn’t feel comfortable wearing outside
Fine. I thought it was obvious that I’d only wear it if I liked it and I was comfortable with it. I didn’t think it had to be spelled out. But, I’d be willing to bet that in most cases, if I like something, I’d be pretty comfortable with it too.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings said:
“Fine. I thought it was obvious that I’d only wear it if I liked it and I was comfortable with it. I didn’t think it had to be spelled out. But, I’d be willing to bet that in most cases, if I like something, I’d be pretty comfortable with it too.
The Wolf”
Ok, so if a person wears a shtreimel and like the look and feels comfortable with it, then he is chassidish (excluding yerushalayim). If that person says that he is MO then something is wrong with him.
says who:
I know this sounds cruel, but perhaps he is collecting and thinks he can make more money the frummer he looks?
He probably is correct.
Ok, so if a person wears a shtreimel and like the look and feels comfortable with it, then he is chassidish (excluding yerushalayim). If that person says that he is MO then something is wrong with him.
Wearing a streimel makes you chassidish?
I suppose if I wear a black hat/white shirt and slacks but proclaim myself MO then something is wrong with me too?
Since I don’t follow any one mehalech (I mix and match from different mehalchim in my life) does that mean that I have to mix and match different “uniform” parts?
Sorry, as I said earlier, I believe people are defined by their beliefs and actions — not the clothes they wear. I don’t believe that wearing a streimel makes you chassidish. Granted, most people who wear streimels are chassidish, but to say that the streimel makes you chassidish is confusing the cause and effect.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings
My last try, If you don’t understand it this time then I don’t know how to explain it to you.
1. There is a difference bet. saying someone is a chassid “actions and beleifs” and saying someone is chassidish “which crowd he identifies himself with”
2. Where did I say that wearing a shtreimel “makes” you chassidish?
I won’t go in circles. I think I explained myself enough.
sorry, but does any of this have to do with girls congregating on the streets? i’d like to stick to the topic, so heres my opinion:
i don’t see any reason why girls should not be able to get together outside of their houses. the street is just as much theirs as it is the bochurims. granted, they should not be wild and noisy and have such an animated conversation where they would be quick to draw attention to themselves. and they should at least stay off the actual sidewalk when they know men and boys will be on their way to and from shul. but other than that, like i said, the street is just as much theirs as it is anyone else’s.
as for the boys, if they know there is a specific street where girls are congregating in a non tznius way, maybe speak to someone and try to stop them (for their own good), for we can’t tell the boys to walk down a different street, because the street is just as much theirs as it is the girls.
this goes both ways, and everyone must be considerate of everyone else. girls of boys, and boys of girls. (men and women too!)
2. Where did I say that wearing a shtreimel “makes” you chassidish?
Above: “Ok, so if a person wears a shtreimel and like the look and feels comfortable with it, then he is chassidish”
I won’t go in circles. I think I explained myself enough.
Fair enough. It’s a silly argument anyway and, as HLM says, it’s completely off-topic anyway.
The Wolf
Wrong HLM, the street is not “just as much” ours as theirs. I mean if you believe in Hashkofos Hatelevision, then you are correct. But not if you believe in Hashkofos HaTorah. Enough meforshim have been earlier cited here clearly and conclusively demonstrating a girls place is NOT on the street.
Helpful:
Insulting someone is UN’Helpful’ to your cause.
Lets try again:
HLM: You mentioned the street belongs to everyone. Even though that is true (if they made a bracha on it :), they are still not allowed to do things that are Assur on that street. For example, you would never say one can eat pig on the street just because they can walk on it. So too, assuming “hanging out” on the street is not Tzanua (as “hanging out” is not “Kol Kavod Bas Melech”, and is not acting in the general quiet manner that a Bas Yisroel should act, as I have pointed out before in the thread), the fact that they can walk on the street does not excuse their behavior.
I know, my paragraph is longer, and less emotional. But I believe it will be more effective.
congregating in the street is not tzanua, i said that, and it should not be done. but if girls wanna sit on the porch or in the front yard, out of harms way, to watch little sibs or just to get some fresh air and CHAT (NOT “hang out with”) with a few friends, in my eyes would be acceptable. i would feel suffocated if i had to stay indoors 24/7.
hanging out is not tzanua, but how can you compare girls having a conversation, in a tznius way, to eating pig? please clarify, cuz i’m not sure i understood that part.
and helpful, i do not follow hashkafos haTV, i do not watch tv, and i bezras HaShem will never own one. i realize u were just giving ur opinion, as that is what the cr is for, and i’m not hurt by what u said, but be careful with what you say please, as someone else might take it the wrong way.
and, lets face it, these days in shmutz la’aretz, although ideally the girls should remain off the streets, it’s not happening these days. today is diff than the days of old. sad, maybe, but reality.
“how can you compare girls having a conversation, in a tznius way, to eating pig?”
I’m not.
gavra was comparing eating pig on the street to acting *non*-tzanua on the street. And I don’t think anyone can disagree with that point.
“gavra was comparing eating pig on the street to acting non-tzanua on the street. And I don’t think anyone can disagree with that point.”
The issur of eating treyf is in a quite different category, than people who have issues with women being out in public.
Comparing them to pigs for being outside be is not exactly a beautiful form of speech.
EDITED
He didnt compare them to pigs for being outside for a constructive purpose. He compared it to those who are non-tzanua.
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