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Thank you BP totty-you seem to be the only one here with common sense! Make it’s because of the fast…
Aries2756-don’t try telling me that the bais hamikdash was destroyed all because of some innocent girls shmoozing outside!
WIY:
In your first post on this thread (the second post of the thread) you agreed it is very wrong for women to congregate in the street. You seem to have somehwhat had change in heart since. Please clarify.
Max well:
Theres no change of heart. I do still agree that “if” there are teenage girls congregating in the streets to attract boys then that is a problem and must be disbanded however it is highly doubtful that it is going on and there may be a few in one specific neighborhood but it is far from being a widespread problem because nobody else has seen this happening, but yes it should not take place.
This thread then changed to married women which because obviously there was no issue with the single girls. So I think some people “invent” problems. Some people are hotheads and have their Tayvos out of control and they try to sound “frum” by being Rodef women and expecting them to live up to unlivable and unrealistic standards.
There is no heter to be Rodef women and try to blame all of our problems on women. Learn to look less!
In my opinion, whats just as bad as girls “Congregating on street corners” is ladies congregating on street corners, dressed in the best when waiting for Hatzolah party school buses to take them to the party.
I am talking about the method in which we go to Parties in my neighborhood. The organizations throwing the party advertise the times when the buses will pass by all the street corners. We only have to wait on the corner to get picked up by the school buses and we’re taken out to the hotel party for the absolutely great organizations we all depend on such as Hatzolah or bikur cholim. Sounds like a great system right? Great service.
The problem with this however, is as i have described, this causes attention. On one corner in particular there is an outdoor goyisher restaurant next to where we stand. I notice a lot of goyish men and women looking and staring at the Yiddisher women, because let’s admit it they are dressed up and attractive! And I mean really looking! It really is not appropriate. I have decided not to go to parties by bus by waiting in this system’s manner. So unless I can get a private driver to take me, I am out of this practice.
To all those who feel that what yb613 said was offensive, or that girls hanging out on the streets is not a problem –
There is the concept of sensitivities. Yes, girls can say that there is no halachic problem with just hanging out outside, BUT that is not the right way. I am a girl, and I understand that if I want to hang out with my friends, I don’t do it outside. You can go to your friend’s house, or walk wherever you need to walk to, there is no problem whatsoever with walking to get to a destination, but the concept of just being outside and talking and laughing and being loud – that really isn’t so right. It definitely does fit into the category of tznius. On the other hand, if two or three girls who are not in a hyper mood want to go out for a nice relaxing Shabbos walk, and they can trust themselves not to get too loud or attention catching, I think that’s fine. Otherwise, it really is an issue. And it has nothing to do with boys seeing or not seeing, looking or not looking – it’s just not tznius, on the girls’ part.
Mischiefmaker, you totally misunderstood me. My comment was in regard to the lack of Ahavas Yisroel and judging everyone so harshly instead of danning l’kaf zchus and stopping to looking for the negative in others.
max well: there is nothing wrong w/what the women are doing,if you feel there is then look the other way. there is no grounds w/i halacha to support anything that you are saying on this subject. so please do the smart thing and don’t comment
Max well, you are so right. Girls intuitively realize how wrong it is to hang out on the streets, as many girls have themselves commented as such on this very thread. It is good this issue is coming to the forefront.
aries2756-I think I still don’t understand you. I asked why we’re blaming the girls and you answered to remind us why we have to cry and fast on tisha b’av. Is that not correct?
exactly smile66
(chachmas eesha bansah baysah)
you should have this bracha
Has anyone ever seen “girls congregating in the street” on shabbos? For 3 hours? Wanton, Goyishe acting girls, congregating at the “parashas derachim”? Lets not get carried away with hyperbole.
yechezkel said “there is no grounds w/i halacha to support anything that you are saying on this subject.”
exactly there is no grounds with halcha. no one said there is. it’s all about sensitivities.
sof davar hakol nishma:
You cant please everyone. Everyone has different sensitivities so as long as its not a Halachic issue but just one of a sensitivity, it is the person with the sensitivity’s obligation to find a way to not be bothered by what goes on that “offends” him. You cant impose your sensitivities on other people, especially a Rabim. So its really up to people with sensitivities to find a way to live their life and not make others feel like they are doing something wrong just because you dont like it.
wellinformedyid,
there is a well known halacha called mechitzos in a shul. The reason being is because of the sensitivities of the people davening, because Halacha knows that men will get distracted if they are around women. I wouldn’t be suprised that the reason there is no halacha about women congregating the streets is because they didn’t if they did then there would be one, taking into account mens sensitivities.
If it offends me that people wear dead animals on their heads, should it now be assur for streimels to be worn? Why kill animals for no reason other than to make a head covering when such warmth is not needed.
WIY – the problem is that especially in the area of tznius – so much of it IS sensitivities. It is a sensitive mitzva given especially to women who have (or hopefully have) these natural sensitivities. They should be natural to us. It’s just common sense that a group of teens / women shmoozing in the street can turn into a loud conversation and be untzniusdik. No one is required to be a brain surgeon to figure that out. The issue was raised here – TO MAKE THOSE UNAWARE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM not to project what “offends” anyone onto others.
If we keep choosing to LOOK for problems we can find problems wherever we look. However, if we choose to dan l’kaf zchus and stop finding fault in everything others do, we might realize that what we think is a problem really isn’t. That is what we call playing the “IF” game. IF the girls or women get into a heated discussion, and get rowdy and that draws attention to them, THEN it CAN BECOME a problem because MEN will look at them.
So IF we trust in the goodness and graciousness of Women and in the Bina Yeseirah that Hashem gave us, THEN we shouldn’t have the problems the CR keep worrying about where women are concerned.
Rescue, that might be PETA’s next campaign!
“The issue was raised here – TO MAKE THOSE UNAWARE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM not to project what “offends” anyone onto others.”
The problem is that people are looking for problems and when they cant find any, make them up.
The problem is people ignore the problems, and when told of them deny them.
Helpful:
Why do they deny there is a problem with congragating in the street? Have you attempted to teach them?
Did they say “I know it is assur, but I am doing it anyway because I want to make men have Taiva”? What happened?
Did you try?
GAW, can you define what halachically is chatzer?
Helpful. Please live up to your name and name ONE street in any frum community where such a problem exists. Remember, the opening comment makes the claim “Its one thing to be going somewhere, but to just be on the street for 3 hours is crazy.” Please name a city/street where you know this to be a problem.
I live in Flatbush. I dont see it on Ave J, Ave M, Bedford Ave., Ocean Parkway, Kings Highway or anywhere in between.
Helpful. The way i see it I am addressing it head on. people making up problems, is a huge problem. Unfortunately, in this age of hiding behind a computer, it is easy to do.
SJSinNYC:
Regarding what?
In general, a Chatzer is a common area in front of a number of individual homes, which opens to a “Mavuyi”, which goes into the street. Most “Tashmishin” are done in this Chatzer (Rashbam).
This Chatzer may or may not have the right to be private if it is owned by an individual, see Hezek Reiyah (begining of Bava Basra).
Apy, publicly shaming a specific street is loshon hora. Publicly crying about a real problem like this, is a mitzva. I will not id specific people or blocks or bungalow colonies.
Helpful lives in EY (see hat and jacket thread).
Then having one girl on the street is already too much.
Remember: two separate societies.
apushatayid:
Im with you 100%. The anonymity of the internet allows people to say all kinds of ridiculous and make things up. I live in Brooklyn as well and have not noticed these girls congregating which leads me to believe that some people just have it in for women.
“IF the girls or women get into a heated discussion, and get rowdy and that draws attention to them, THEN it CAN BECOME a problem because MEN will look at them. “
Forget the men – if they get into such a heated discussion that they get rowdy – I’M GONNA LOOK AT THEM!!!
“which leads me to believe that some people just have it in for women. “
I am already getting that impression every time I read another rant about women being the cause of all evil that happens to Klal Yisroel. The Churban Bayis Sheini was not caused by women, but primarily by talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other, according to what I have been taught all my life. As always, if I am mistaken, please correct me.
I’m not from EY. I do agree the anonymity of the net makes it all too easy to hide behind a computer to dismiss real problems that klal yisroel is trying to correct, and make choizek of the whole terrible matzif.
It may seem without consequence, but there is a bashefer keeping din v’cheshbon.
GAW, regarding front yards. And women hanging out in them.
For every girl quoted in this thread who think it is a great idea to keep girls in the house under lock and key, there is another girl who can’t wait to get out from under their parent’s stifling control.
Is there a correlation between the extremes you go to keep the genders apart and the fear of what they will do if they come together? What is wrong with their upbringing that they can’t control themselves?
Oomis, I do agree with you that there is a tendency to scapegoat women. The real scapegoat in the temple service of Yom Kippur had to be a MALE goat.
Hence, the next time you hear women being blamed for all the ills, remind him that a female is Pasul (not valid) for the scapegoat.
“talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other” was the cause of the plague against Rabbi Akiba’s students.
Baseless hatred of fellow Jews is the most considered cause of the second Destruction. This sin is a pitfall for both men and women.
lesschumras, whether right or wrong, the parents fear isn’t to the extent of “what they’ll do”, it is who they might choose to associate with, that might displease the parents and “ruin” reputations and chances of a good Shidduch, by their daughters simply speaking to the wrong people.
Although, with so many years of the Shidduch crisis having left us with many many disgruntled older single girls around putting a damper on the home atmosphere, I think now many parents of girls almost wish their daughters could meet boys on their own.
“I think now many parents of girls almost wish their daughters could meet boys on their own. “
If they had, they probably would be married by now with several kids in tow. We have to stop the negative press on meeting guys outside of shidduchim. It worked very well for frum girls 30 years ago.
“The real scapegoat in the temple service of Yom Kippur had to be a MALE goat.Hence, the next time you hear women being blamed for all the ills, remind him that a female is Pasul (not valid) for the scapegoat.”
EXCELLENT point!
“talmidei chachomim who disrespected each other” was the cause of the plague against Rabbi Akiba’s students.”
Thank you Josh, for the correction. I actually realized that myself once eventually when I re-read what I wrote. The sinas chinam which caused the churban bayis sheini however, was precipitated by the Kamtza-Bar Kamtza debacle, and the principal characters were male, so I was still in the ball park.
If they had, they probably would be married by now with several kids in tow. We have to stop the negative press on meeting guys outside of shidduchim. It worked very well for frum girls 30 years ago.
It worked for me less than 20 years ago. I never went on a “shidduch date” in my life.
The Wolf
“Apy, publicly shaming a specific street is loshon hora. Publicly crying about a real problem like this, is a mitzva. I will not id specific people or blocks or bungalow colonies.”
I’ll do it for you. There are NONE. Someone is making up a problem that doesn’t exist.
Wolf, it worked for you twenty years ago. The world is a little bit less moral since then. Actually a whole lot less. And IT does have an hoshpoa on the frum communtiites.
I don’t want to talk against an entire group who call themselves Orthodox, but what goes on in these circles where boys and girls freely meet, I cannot begin to tell you. Nor do I have to. I’m sure you know yourself what goes on.
I’m not talking about the more settled older singles. I’m talking about late teens, early twenties. It’s a different world than when you were that age Wolf!
I think now many parents of girls almost wish their daughters could meet boys on their own.
That will cause a crisis in a different way.
I did go on shidduch dates, only we called them blind dates, and my parents had nothing to do with arranging them. I B”H met my husband on my own when he walked into the place where I worked, on business, and decided he liked the reception girl out front. The rest is history, 33 years, bli ayin hara five kids, and 2 grandkids kein yirbu, later.
I don’t want to talk against an entire group who call themselves Orthodox, but
… I’m going to do so anyway, just without using actual “M” word.
The Wolf
To all those who never went on a Shidduch date and “met on their own”, that’s not easy either. From what I hear, the singles functions, these days, attract loads of girls and very few guys, so the girls all feel like fifth legs, except for the prettiest ones who get surrounded by the few guys and the rest of the girls go home disappointed.
Are there any other ways to meet that Im not aware of?
philosopher, re: “That will cause a crisis in a different way. “
What crisis are you referring to?
Are there any other ways to meet that Im not aware of?
Well, in my case, it was through a friend and the Brooklyn Public Library. I was far too young to be going to singles events.
The Wolf
Crisis is always a hard thing to deal with, especially in the shidduch world. The best way to deal with it is to stay positive and keep reaching higher…
Philosopher, I am part of the “unmentionable” group. From the girls I know who dated late teens/early 20s and met their spouses on their own, most were 100% ehrlich.
But then again some of my yeshivish friends told me of some non ehrlich things the’ve done.
Behind closed doors, you don’t know anything.
what???? what are you people talking about! there are many ways to go out and meet a girl/boy other than going on a “blind date” or stam shmoozing with some girl off the street.
And as some mentioned the world is A VERY DIFFERENT world than it was even 15 years ago. In very yeshivish circles unfortunately i’ve noticed a great lack of sensitivities in such areas.
“Are there any other ways to meet that Im not aware of?”
Yes, but they are not considered tzniusdig enough by yeshivish standards. I met my husband in the work place. Many girls could do the same – but won’t. Going to college where both genders are in classes AT THE SAME TIME, is another terrific way. My daughter met her incredible husband (my wonderful son-in-law who is another son to me) in college, and in fact, they got to know each other in a beautiful and special way ON THEIR OWN. They are frum kids, who have seichel and adore each other. My son-in-law learns with a chavrusah, holds down a fulltime job, and is a devoted husband and father. He also is an extremely caring and thoughtful person, who opens a car door for ME when I get in and out of his car (as my husband still does after 33 years!).
I think our bnos Yisroel are missing out on the experience they deserve – that of being cherished by their husbands. Boys should be taught the social niceties ALL ALONG in Yeshivah, not just in a chosson shmooze before the wedding. OK, done with my rant – for now.
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