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Why is there this crazy thing that all girls hafta B a size 0? It’s totally nuts! I know some very fine girls who are size 8,10 and higher but when a shadchan hears her size-4get it!!
1/2 of my friends who are engaged are size 8+, so I’m not sure I believe all this hype.
main thing is people should realize that it’s what’s inside that counts
I find that these types of threads keep coming up. People like to lament about the sorry state of our society today. Instead of just going in circles and being totally redundant, I think that people should try to brainstorm about ways to rise above these issues. For example: Okay shadchanim are totally judgmental about girls’ sizes but let’s try to raise our children in a way that allows them to not fall into that trap. Then we can have a constructive conversation about how to go about that. I don’t want to put anyone down or anything – I’m guilty of my fair share of complaining about this stuff, but I think that at a certain point it’s time to move past the complaining and on to bigger and better things. Like trying to find solutions (if not to the problem itself at least to our own mindsets).
I would tell her that it’s not healthy to be too skinny.
The attention given to womens’ physical appearance is a great example of our assimilation into acceptance of gentile values. I have been married five years and still don’t know what my wife’s dress size is.
I wouldn’t WANT a boy who’s only looking for a size 0 girl, even though I was very thin. Doesn’t show good middos from the boys part.
I don’t see anything wrong with being a size 6,8 and on. As long as one is controlled with their weight and eating with limits.
And a good lesson for all those single boys looking for the zeros: b4 I got married I was a size 2, and once the kids started coming it DIDN’T stay that way at all.
That’s what happens to MOST women.
So if you’re looking for that skinny girl, bare in mind that sizes change. Its the insides that stay forever.
I know about some shadchanim, that don’t care about the sizes!
The shadchan has no buissiness to ask…i’m sorry. She could say does she look good? or put together? does she care about the way she looks? but a size?! my goodness! and what happens when the girl has a baby and doesnt lose all her baby fat? get a divorce?! comon! no one should have to answer to a shadchan who wants to know the dress size!
Paschabchochma: just so you know a size zero doesn’t always mean too skinny, there are some girls who yes starve themselves and have problems and ARE too skinny and there are those girls who just were born with a smaller petite HEALTHY figure. And its true, I would know
Credit must be given where credit is due. And credit is due to doped up for his <ahttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shidduchim-038-weight#post-8612>brilliant reply on page 2 of Shidduchim Weight Thread
passion 4- Yes I know, I am one of those but it’s not good either to be that petite, I know someone who works with women and she says it can be a health problem later on if they aren’t careful to get enough exercise, having a bone frame that is delicate like that is not always healthy even though it is a natural weight(although it can be healthy if they are aware of the issues that can come up, which I would rather not go into detail here). Petite women have to work harder to stave off osteoporosis ch”v, among other things, and should be aware of their bone structure. So while there’s nothing wrong with looking for a size 2 I would be interested in a healthy person, not in a person who doesn’t take care of themselves.
Torahis1- great reply. That is absolutely true. However, it is sad that people check for size and do not care about the long term health of a girl. It is sad for the boy and for the girl, everyone suffers when the mother struggles more than she has to physically because she just didn’t know why a person with a delicate frame has to do some exercise and not just sit back and thank Hashem for making them pretty.
In general we need to teach kids about health, the real reason we care about size is because it is an indicator of health. People who are skinny, do tend to have less heart disease, etc. But if in school we learned about proper nutrition, had to do exercise and were taught about basic prevention, fewer girls would be overweight in the first place, everyone would be healthier and this issue would be minimized.
When I was in shidduchim many years ago, a shadchanis once finished a rundown by telling me the girl’s dress size. I said, “Thanks, but since I stopped wearing my sister’s dresses a few years ago, I’ve forgotten what that means.”
Needless to say, I was never redt to the girl.
Unless the girl in question is under 5 ft tall, I’m willing to bet a size 0 puts her in the unhealthy category.
If she’s of average height (figure 5.5 or so) her size had better be closer 4 or a 6.
Wanna drive the shadchan nuts? Ask her what the girls BMI is (20 is ideal). If the Shadchan says, what’s a BMI?, if safe to assume the shadchan is probably a size 18 herself, so who is she to throw stones? (if its male shadchan, size 18 would be 46-48 REG)
In short, its not the dress size you’re marriying, its the person. Health matters more than appearences. And on the topic, it would not hurt us CR dwellers to google BMI and see where we rank. Health matters to all of us!
If you are worried about the health issues of overweight people, look equally at the health issues of people who yo-yo diet, purge themselves, or eat poorly in order to stay thin. They are ALL a heart attack waiting to happen. Nothing in excess is good, whether too fat or too thin.
I will make one statement that should summarize the whole thread: If you want a shidduch of quality, then you yourself have to be quality. Anybody asking such questions does not fit into that category!
BPTotty- actually a girl can be up to 5’3 and a size 0, if they are in the very low normal range.
Unknown 613: by quality do you include healthy?
At that height, to be a size zero, my guess would the most that person could weigh is 110 lbs. That’s a whopping 15 lbs less than my 5’3 size 8 aishes chayil. Perhaps of one the other CR folks can shed some light on the weight of a size zero, but figuring on 5 lbs per size, to go from an 8 to a zero, at 5’3, you would need to closer to 97 lbs which would put that person at a 17 BMI (rated as unhealthy on the BMI index)
All around health (mental and physical) should be the goal of today’s people in shidduchim. Not numbers. Read any article about the side effects of axorexia and bulimia, and I can tell you, that is the LAST person you want to marry, especially if your tachlis in life is building klal yisroel (v’hameven, yovin
If you want to talk numbers, make sure they are healthy numbers!
This thread sounds like a radio ad. Yiden, shem zich.
I don’t see the relevence in asking for the girl’s dress size, though asking for her BMI is important, as it is one measure of health.
Mt. Mehdi, do you actually mean that asking for the BMI is important, or that we can be dan lecaf zechus that such a question does not mean setting one’s daughter up with the mother in law from gehenom?
There are important points to be discussed here but I think some of us are missing them.
Guys who do not want fat girls are not being judgmental, they are looking for a spouse who they will be attracted to. Is that unreasonable?
Shadchanim who try to set people up who will be compatible based on what the people are looking for are not being judgmental either. Nor are mothers who look for what their son wants. (Although mothers usually look for what they themselves want.)
Saying “it’s whats inside that counts” is not the whole truth. Certainly, what is inside counts, but is that all that counts? Do you believe that physical attraction is unnecessary? Did G-d create physical attraction for no reason?
Oh! and don’t think that issues of anorexia and bulimia are because of this emphasis. Both of these diseases are psychological disorders and happen because of bad parenting. Perhaps they manifest as eating disorders because of the importance people place on being slim, but without that they would simply manifest in other ways.
BP Totty: why did you share that info to us. I am sure your wife would not have wanted. Did you ask her first!?
A lot of times, it is not the boys who want the size zero but their mothers.
BP TOtty- I don’t want to disclose my BMI but suffice it to say that it is possible to be thinner than that! it has a lot to do with bone structure as well, though, as I alluded to earlier. The ranges of healthy weight are different for those with delicate bone structures than for those who have thicker bones. (btw it’s better to have heavier bones, it makes you stronger).
In other words, size, weight, height, etc does not help! what you want to knwo is if the person is HEALTHY. That’s what you need to build a bayis neeman byisrael v’nishmartem meod l’nafshoseichem!
Realtalk –
1st of all, the data I revealed about my wife (who, like me, is middle age) is NOTHING to be ashamed of. Quite the contrary, she can run circles around folks 10 years younger than her.
2nd – the beauty of the CR is that nothing is revealed (expect to the mods,maybe) so even if she did take issue with what I wrote (which I doubt, because she spends her time on a mom site), no one knows its her
BP Totty:
real name: Jordan Fogel
wife: Miriam Basya Fogel
address: 6400 Huntington Dr., Deal, NJ
phone: 678-4512
ss# 354 45 7896
adjusted gross income 2008: $92,000
geologic engineer for BP-Amoco
Do people not realize that height, build and muscle has much to do with someone’s weight?
The average height for a girl is around 5’4, but there are a lot of girls who are either above this and below this “norm.”
There are plenty of women/girls who can be a size zero without being too skinny or have an eating disorder.
I know some tall girls with bigger sizes who look slim while I also know some short girls with smaller sizer look husky.
There’s a very fit individual who is 5’1/5’2 and usually a size 0 or a loose size 2. She looks fit, not “unhealthy.” So please don’t judge someone on their weight or size. By doing so, you may inadvertently cause eating disorder rumors about the person when in fact they are very healthy.
“When I was in shidduchim many years ago, a shadchanis once finished a rundown by telling me the girl’s dress size. I said, Thanks, but since I stopped wearing my sister’s dresses a few years ago, I’ve forgotten what that means.
Needless to say, I was never redt to the girl.”
telegrok – LOL Bravo!
I most certainly care. Not to an extreme degree – but I would certainly not have gone on a shidduch with an overweight girl.
While my wife is not really thin, she is definitely not overweight either (same for me, by the way). I’m 1.81m and 77 kg – nothing really extreme (though I’d prefer to lose 5 kg).
Most of those who say that one shouldn’t care are talking nonsense. It DOES matters, since it’s an issue of health. Being overweight is simply unhealthy. Aside from being ugly it’s a symbol of bad health. I don’t like both.
Bye bye, political correctness.
“Being overweight is simply unhealthy. Aside from being ugly it’s a symbol of bad health”. i’m sorry but thats a very strong statement Daniel Breslauer. overweight can mean a couple of lbs. more than what your supposed to weigh-i definitely wouldn’t term that ugly. as a matter of fact i wouldn’t term anyone ugly. being as it may, i know some overweight ppl that are actually very attractive. and not necessarily is it a symbol of bad health.i would not say no to a shidduch bec. of weight. thats very narrowmindedness. if my spouse is appealing to me e/ if theyre overweight, i would definitely go ahead.
popa b abba: not fat does not equal size 0.
Mod 80: huh??
Mod 80 –
Ha Ha! But everyone knows if I WAS Jordan Fogel, I could not live in Deal, nor could my income be $92k. And I would most certainly not work for BP, but the “BP” pun was very funny!
Yoshi –
Yes, its true, BMI does not account for muscle, which is more dense than fat tissue. But I’ll venture a guess that most girls in shidduchim today are not athletes, so the weight to height ratio should be in the 18-20 BMI range.
I also realize that it seems to some CR members that my “obsession” with health and fitness (know your BMI number, ect) may seem as extreme as a shadchan’s obsession with dress size. For that, I apologize.
Think of your BMI number in terms of your blood pressure or cholesterol numbers. No, you do not need to live your life around it, but you should at least know (one a year, at the miminum) what your numbers are.
And I was sure BP Totty was a Boro Park Dad!
Mod 80, how many Fogel’s do you know in Deal? I have alot more Farhi and Mizrahi friends living there 😉
I’m not from the East.
I don’t know anything about Deal.
I just know it’s in the East somewhere and i like the name.
Deal is a wealthy, Sefardi enclave near Lakewood NJ
Thanks
Mod 80 –
NOT FROM THE EAST?! And here I thought that all of the YW staff is based in Lakewood (or Passaic, at the very least).
What’s next? We find out that Mod 80s real name is Jordan? Though if you chose a hypothetical spouse name like Miriam Basya, that’s as Yeshivish as anyone can expect.
Most are from the East. There are at least two from the Midwest, and at least one from E’Y.
Well mod 42 always moderates during the night so he must be from out of town(I hope).
i dont know who said this but i will repeat it. size is not always about superficiality. when i was dating, i would not go out with anyone who seemed big to me because i was VERY small and 1. i was just plain scared and 2. it was not (and still is not) something to which i was attracted. most of the dates i went on were NOT shiduchim, but the few dates that were, were all skinny.
i think it really depends who is asking and why. my standard answer when a guy asks me if a girl is pretty is i dont know what you consider pretty. i usually say go on one date and see for yourself.
also, many times attraction comes with time, so if everything else is great, as long as you dont abhor the other persons looks, i say give it another chance.
but thats just my opinion, and i certainly dont expect everyone to agree.
shidduchim should never be based on a size. you know what…. if the boy is to shallow to just be concerned about a number on a dress why would anyone wanna marry him?!?!?!? people should realize that the world is not all about looks. its about middos and torah. as they say, its what inside that counts. ou take your body into the next world just ur qualitys and neshama. so who cares about a size??!?!?!?
Okthen, although I happen to agree with you haskafically, in practical terms, a boy and girl still want to feel an attraction to each other, and there is NOTHING wrong with that. What is wrong is when the conditions for thinking someone is attractive are based on extremely arbitrary, superficial and extremely subjective issues. The number on a dress measns absolutwly nothing. If a girl is put together, clean and well groomed, knows how to do her hair and makeup, then she might look extremely attractive at a size 8, 10, or even (horrors!) 12. Lucille Ball was a size 12-14. Would anyone have thought her to be unattractive and fat?
We are too hung up on NUMBERS and not giveing enough attention to the whole package. If the rabbonim want to REALLY make a difference in the frum world, instead of only issuing kol koreys against concerts, they will immediately issue one against the permissibility of ANY shadchan asking a dress size number, and any parent OPFFERING that information to a shadchan. That nonsense should stop. Now. There are plent of lovely young healthy women who are not a size two, and they are GORGEOUS. And btw, how good-looking, well-built, and appealing are the boys, whose mamas are so makpid on getting sonny-boy a size two wife? It’s a two-way street. Our kids should not be getting the message that a specific standard of looks is such a major criteria. If someone is pleasant looking and not a complete turnoff to the other person, they should give it a shot,even if the subjective appearance is not what society has been stupidly telling them to want for themselves.
I really MUST proofread myself.
The “boys” as we call them, have to also learn to speak up for themselves and tell their mothers and the shadchanim that while they want to feel their wife is reasonably attractive, THEY DON’T CARE if she is size two. If a mother is repeatedly nixing shidduchim for her precious son on that basis, this is one of those gray areas where kibud em does not necessarily mean doing what mommy says or else, and a son has the right to respectfully tell his mom to back off a little and let him be a grownup and make up his own mind. (And yes, I asked a rov about this).
This was all written two years ago? Nothing changed.
Often while reading some of the threads here I feel like Im living on a diffrent planet. This is one such scenario.
These days, as it has been for a long time now, Shadchanim cant sell a girl who is over a size 8. Theyd love to! A Shadchans goal is to make Shidduchim period, whether the girl is size 0 or 22. Whether you want to admit it or not, if you speak to guys, one of the first things they say they want is a slim girl. Their idea of slim is the skinny cutie pie type girls who dont come anywhere near a size ten, whether you like it or not. If a Shadchan heaven forbid makes a girl out to be thinner than she is, the guy will never trust that Shadchan again, and will never come back to take up another one of their suggestions, no matter how great the girl is otherwise.
Give up blaming mothers, give up blaming Shadchanim. Theyre just the messengers trying to bring the guys what they want.
Whether Yeshiva educated guys should be focusing on body shape and size to this extent, thats a different issue, better taken up by Roshei Yeshivas. Possibly it already has been taken up by R”Y, but with little or no success. It is what it is.
Time to throw in the towel.
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