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The fact that she wants me to change my Rabbi for her shows that she doesn’t value Daat Torah. Don’t you think so?
No, it doesn’t show that. There is no indication from your posts that she doesn’t respect rabbis.
Also, how is your question even relevant to the discussion? You wrote:
She said that she doesn’t mind if I stay in touch with him and ask him for his advice
and
she said again that she doesn’t mind it if I talk to him
so she’s not even asking you to change your rav; she would just prefer that her own questions be taken to a different rav.
in the op RebbeDovid wrote the “she would want us to have a different family Rabbi.” sounds like she is insisting he change “family rabbi”. who the family rabbi is should be a decision of his and i dont see any good reason she would demand changing who the family rabbi is.
ariele: No, he currently has a personal Rabbi. He has no family Rabbi because, well, he kinda doesn’t have a family (at least, not one that he is responsible for) yet. That’s kinda why he’s looking to get married.
Rebbe Dovid writes
The fact that she wants me to change my Rabbi for her shows that she doesn’t value Daat Torah. Don’t you think so?
In his initial post he says that he is “discusted” (sic) by her attitude towards this Rabbi whereas in a previous sentence he calls her amazing.
Tell me something Rebbe Dovid
Do all the parents get along?
Does your family like this girl?
This individual is not telling you not to seek his counsel. For whatever reason, she is not comfortable with this individual and you cannot understand that and this issue is a dealbreaker??
After all, how often will there be a need to consult with this Rabbi?
For important issues which affect the both of you, you do not think that the relationship is worth finding someone acceptable to both of you?
That is the true essence of marriage Rebbe Dovid. Compromise.
You have a lot of growing up to do before you walk under the chuppah my friend.
I am not a shrink but I think you have control issues that need to be addressed.
Be happy that you have an intelligent articulate individual who is letting you know what is bothering her up front and not letting it simmer and boil over after the wedding.
Your extreme comments are both revealing and troubling.
“On many issues it is a posek or rav that needs to make the decision. This is an issue of aseh lecho rav and should be decided on with his rav.”
No Lior, he needs to make the decision on his own. On a matter like this, rabbonim are for consulting, not for telling you what to do.
Reb Dovid is looking for a rav to tell him what to do and I’m poiting out that HE needs to make the decision.
Why are so many of you being negative nancy?
To the negative ones: Many of you state “I don’t really know or am sure that I don’t have all the info on the topic” then you give very harsh criticism. With the little info you do know, why the hard words for this young man. you can’t rebuke unless you have the whole story.
Rebbedovid I would suggest to stay cool and not get yourself crazy about what she said. I once had a rebbe I was so close with, I practically lived in his house. I do remember when someone would say they don’t agree with him I would get a little defensive because of my close relationship to him. So I’m asking could it be since you have a close connection to your rebbe that with the words of the woman you are dating have made you a little defensive?
From my perspective, if she were my daughter, I would caution her about marrying you. You said that she had other problems with your Rebbe, aside from not feeling comfortable with him. She explained it to you, but you seem to lack concern for her feelings.
Keep in mind, no one, not even your Rebbe is perfect. I have seen some Rabbonim give very poor advice in interpersonal relationship issues. Your Rebbe may be just fine in the Halachic area, but it doesn’t mean he is suitable in every other way.
I don’t feel that you’re mature enough to make that decision now. Speak to your parents about it. I’d bet the girl has a very valid point and has insight that you don’t.
If you can’t consider your wife’s feelings about this, you will probably have that attitude about other things as well. If you want a successful, happy marriage (no matter who you marry), you need to think things through better and mature a little more. In real life, those absolute gender roles are never absolute. A successful marriage is a partnership.
yah speak to your rebbe…usually when people get married the girl goes with the boys rav
It’s true that once married the girl usually goes with the boy’s Rav but if she has a problem with him then I am sure that even your Rav if he is not a controlling Rabbi and he is good and sincere he would even tell you that you should pick a Rav that you are both comfortable with. But this is absolutely not a reason to break off a relationship. If I was in this situation I would tell the guy that if he doesn’t agree to change his Rav once we get engaged/married then I will break it off with him myself because the fact that he doesn’t want to compromise on something like this is a big red flag.
dial427436,
Many of you state “I don’t really know or am sure that I don’t have all the info on the topic” then you give very harsh criticism. With the little info you do know, why the hard words for this young man. you can’t rebuke unless you have the whole story.
In this case I disagree. Usually the difficulty in assessing threads is because we only hear one side of the story, and we can’t really judge the other side without hearing it too. In this case, however, the side that we are hearing is offensive by itself, and there is very little new information that could change that.
For example,
whether she has good points or not I don’t really care
is an extremely toxic thing to say or feel in a relationship.
Rebbe Dovid-
As you are growing up, I hope that you will endevour to learn the importance of maintaining healthy relationships through dialogue and mutual understanding. Before embarking on the journey of building a house, it may be advisable to become somewhat competent in the perek of interpersonal relationships and conflict management. There are numerous good books written about these subjects which you may find you can put to good use.
Marriage is often about vatranut and very often about maturity. If you find it difficult to understand and deal with the fact that the girl you are dating differs in opinion on the subject of choice of family rav, and respect her need for you not to tell the latter about her opinion of him, thereby saving her face; or even to discuss this intelligibly and sensitively with the girl; one may advise that you learn more on the subject of marriage before trying it– indeed, perhaps it would be recommended that you find a new marriage coach.
Best of luck
shteig
Rebbidovid1, I just opened an account to respond for your question:
Please let me add a few points from my experience in this field.
1) Hakaros hatov plays NO role in whom you have as your family Rav, or you marry or what yeshiva you’ll send your kid to. Hakaros hatov will never dictate for someone to destroy a relationship either.
2) From the way she addressed her concern, it sounds like she has the most beautiful and polite way of expressing herself about things that cause her discomfort, which is from. The most important things someone can ever want in a spouse.
3) You say that she doesn’t really have a concrete reason why she feels uncomfortable with the Rav, SHE DOES, Newsflash about ALL women, she’ll only tell you what’s really bothering her once she feels completely safe and secure about you and your reaction, as well as the feeling that you REALLY care what she wants to say.
4) What may very we’ll be what’s bothering her is that she feels that you will maintain a better relationship with your Rav and his opinion over that of your wife, and your Rav will be the most important person in your life. It looks like maybe you do view it like that, if you do, marry your Rav.
What she is asking you In a roundabout way is, if you marry me will you care more about me or your Rav. Are you willing to take on a different rebbi ever? Or if you had to pick one , me or Rebbi would you take rebbi?
There is not a woman in this world that will be willing to marry a man who values someone else more than her.
If you can convey to her wholeheartedly that she will always be #1 in your life, and the Rav is there for “guidance” and not your “brain and heart” she will most likely become comfortable with your rebbi.
In one sentence, she has no interest to marry your rebbi, she wants you to be you.
May Hashem give you the clarity in this challenge that you face and you should build a bayis Neman biyisroel.
OR – there may really be something that the rabbi said or did that made her uncomfortable, something that the young man might not be perceptive about or receptive to hearing. Maybe something happened that made her feel the rabbi was getting too personal in some way. WE DON’T KNOW, and neither does the OP, because he has not yet found out what it was.
Please talk to your lady friend and get her to be honest with you. Don’t take a vague answer on its face. If you cannot communicate NOW when it is important to do so, you may never be able to communicate. This might all be an innocent misunderstanding.
How about a zabla, assuming that she has a rav? (my husband’s idea)
jf02, what does he mean by that idea?
Shalom RebbeDovid,
there is nothing wrong with you.
It may be that she does not feel so comfortable being close or being known or scrutinized by this Rav. There may be reasons that are in truth baseless. It also happens that a certain person (including a Rav) may seem to act in a way that seems to convey that he doesn’t like or accept us, when in truth his behavior (or what we perceive as his behavior) has nothing to do with us. But we might suspect, that since a person doesn’t look friendly he doesn’t like us. But there can be other explanations, for example the person having a bad day, thinking about something that upsets him personally without him even taking notice of us! 🙂
So, there can be wrong interpretations and misunderstandings.
It may be that there is a reason why she is not 100% comfortable with him for reasons that we don’t know.
The bottom line is, there is a big potential here for baseless hatred. We can’t know what is really happening, but it may well be baseless, or based on a misunderstanding, or even a misjudgement on her part.
Maybe there is some distrust on her part, but again, there is definitely potential for big misunderstandings here.
I would say the following: When she said that it is ok with her that you continue to stay in contact with him and also consult with him, that seems reasonable and flexible and like a willingness to find a solution on her part. THIS IS HOW WOMAN SPEAK 🙂
I think she was saying that she does agree with you having him as a Rav, only that she wants matters that also deal with her not be brought to him.
I think the following: Opinions can change! Also her confidence can increase.
Misunderstandings will eventually be resolved.
You should check if she is a decent person (and I mean, with all due respect, beyond an outward appearance). Also chemistry does not have to mean everything. You should definitely check her as a person and what her motivations as a person are.
If you are convinced of her integrity, I think you should not worry.
Also ask your mother what she thinks.
Marry a woman with a good heart (and I mean a woman with a good heart)
I just wanted to emphasize: it may well be that what she actually also meant to convey to you is that SHE DOES WANT to reach common ground with you!
“Zeh borrer lo echad v’zeh borrer lo echad” (in the first or second perek of Sanhedrin.) It means that each litigant (in this case, the chosson and kallah) selects a rabbi, and the two rabbis together choose a third rabbi. Normally, it’s used to make a Beis Din of three; in this case, the couple would agree to choose a “family rabbi” based on the agreement of each of their personal rabbonim.
I understood the term and meaning in its original context of litigation. Applying it here you are asking a) two nogeah b’dovors to make a decision to select someone other than themselves and b) one of them may agree with the position that himself is the most appropriate selection, which presumably your husband’s suggestion precludes.
This discussion is very interesting
almost like it was the first time you brought it up . . .
A woman needs a father. A woman needs a husband. That’s the way it has worked for thousands of years. You think your bube’s bube had a Rav?
It’s not tznius for women to be marching off to rabbis. This is a new phenomena.
Since I have neither a father nor a husband, where am I supposed to go with my shailos? The CR?
And b’michilas kvoid haifagirl (who is awfully quiet these days),
One phenomenon
Many phenomena
You are welcome.
Thank you.,
Rebbe Dovid,
It’s an easy question to answer: Who do you love more? If you love the Rabbi more dump the girl. If you love the girl more dump the Rabbi. If you love the Rabbi more then the Girl you probably should not marry her anyway.
Ditto to 646. If this a factor in courtship than your’e not marriage material & neither is she. Spare the both of you and move on
Another point:
The fact that you question if you should take the Girl you feel enough for that she can be your wife’s side against a 3rd party shows that you have a different concept of what a marriage should be then most people (and probably the girl that you are dating). You ALWAYS take her side against a 3rd party ALWAYS. You can discuss with her privately how you think she may have misunderstood something said by someone or whatever, but if someone makes her uncomfortable that person is WRONG and she is right. You choose you spouse over evreyone else in the world. That’s really the whole idea. The idea of a marriage is that it’s you two “against” (I’m using the term loosely) the world.
Rebbe Dovid: According to 000646’s logic, if the girl insisted you end your relationship with your parents you should do so if you love her the most.
Dumping your rabbi, based on your potential fiance’s request, is no different than dumping your parental relationship based on her request.
She isn’t marriage material if she actually is asking you to dump your rabbi. No sane person would make such a request.
Lior,
If you have to choose between your parents and your wife you choose your wife. This is not to say that you cannot discuss with your wife why she feels she cannot have your parents in your family’s life or that your wife should not respect your attachment to your parents but if you have to choose you take your wife’s side.
Lior:
???????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ?????
??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???
000646: The Halacha is 100% clear that if your parent and your wife make conflicting requests to you, that you’re legally obligated to honor your parent’s request over your wife’s. (The reverse isn’t true, as the Halacha is that a wife must honor her husband’s request over her parents.)
I know that these halachic facts don’t sit well with modern 21st Century American sensibilities, but so be it.
On top of all this, the OP is talking about a potential fiance, not his wife. It is far from the same. This girl has red flags written all over her.
Lior,
Yeah, whatever. Hope you find a girl with your ideas on marriage. If you are going to marry someone you have to be willing to take their side against anyone and evreyone. It’s not complicated and that’s what marriage is all about. If you are not willing to take their side against evreyone then you should not be marrying them.
Yeah, whateveh who carez what old fashioned halacha sayz. This iz Amerika.
Anyways, you’re correct that I shouldn’t be marrying them – as Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom is still in effect.
Lol. 🙂 Best of luck to you and your wife Sir. Don’t forget that if your wife refuses to wash your feet you should force her with a stick (or withhold her food and clothing and stuff.) don’t let those evil western morals tell you anything else.
A husband can be mochel his wife’s halachic obligation to him in a particular setting. He cannot be mochel his own halachic obligation to honor his parents first. Y’know… one of those Ten Commandment thingies. 🙂
Lior,
So you believe that starving/depriving or hitting your wife to force her to wash your feet is not wrong and immoral?
No Halacha allows a husband to hit his wife. You’re confused with Beis Din. And Beis Din can hit a husband or a wife or a grandpa or anyone in contempt for that matter that it needs to as a last resort to enforce its judicial decisions with.
Lior,
I am not a big enough Talmud Chachom to have an opinion as to the truth of that statement. However even if I grant it to you, What you seemed to be saying earlier was that the reason why we do not (or perhaps would not) beat or starve women who refuse to wash their husband’s feet is because the husband is typically Mochel this obligation. However if he wasn’t Mochel, having the women beaten or starved/deprived until she agrees to wash his feet would be perfectly acceptable.
So my questions on your view is this:
1.) Do you think that a society that hits or deprives/starves women who refuse to wash their husband’s feet is not immoral? Do you really think that a society that has this done to women is a moral society?
2.) How could a B”D carry out depriving a women of food or necessities? (it does not seem that the Halacha is talking about incarceration here) this is something that it seems that Husband would have to do.
If it were me, I probably would think twice before marrying such a woman. Sounds controlling, and regardless of what offended her (maybe she is just ultrasensitive?), she is demonstrating a middah that I would find distasteful. I can’t imagine my wife even entering into this discussion; she says if I am comfortable with my rav to ask the deepest of shailos, I should stay with him.
“Since I have neither a father nor a husband, where am I supposed to go with my shailos? “
You are supposed to master Shas and Poskim on your own so that you never have to ask a shilah.
Early in my marriage my wife and I had numerous arguments over halachah.
Me: But [my] Rabbi X [YU guy] says this.
She: But [her] Rabbi Y [Lakewood guy] says not this.
For the sake of shalom bayit I compromised. I agreed to follow her rav on all matters except when he agreed with my rav, and only then would we follow my rav. Something similar might be worth considering here.
lol, charlie
000646,
I think you have some really big misunderstandings about Torah law in regards to marriage.
Nowhere in Rambam or anywhere else does it say that a husband can deprive, starve, or hit his wife!
According to Torah law, a husband has numerous obligations to his wife, including providing food, clothing, shelter, etc. In many cases where the couple R”L separates, the husband continues to be obligated to provide these benefits until he gives a get and kesuba payment. This is somewhat similar to the concept of alimony, except that is is more extensive! In other words, Torah frequently provides greater protections for the wife in case of separation than U.S. law does!
There are other circumstances where a husband’s obligations to provide the funds for food, clothing, shelter, etc. are waived when they separate and before the get is given. Correspondingly in these cases, the husband’s rights to his wife’s earnings and estate also get waived. It is no different than separations in the U.S., where the estranged parties have to find their own way. The wife is free to move into her own home, get a job, etc. This is very different from the “starving” that you are thinking.
Halacha has no concept of the secular-style ongoing alimony other than the one-time kesuba payment. His obligation to support his wife while married does not obligate him to support her out of his home if she decides to separate, and his support obligation is fulfilled by stocking his fridge with food and the closet with clothes and inviting her to live in his home to utilize that support. If he forces her out of the home then that obligation of his would continue wherever she is. His rights to her earnings can only be ended by her agreeing to waive his obligation to support her. This latter arrangement is entirely in her hands and can be invoked anytime during a marriage.
“The Halacha is 100% clear that if your parent and your wife make conflicting requests to you, that you’re legally obligated to honor your parent’s request over your wife’s.”
And if you don’t figure out a way to reconcile that conflict, there won’t be any more such conflicts because you won’t be married much longer.
Avram in MD,
Here’s the Rambam Ishus 21:10 . ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????. ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????
I believe the Raavid argues on the hitting and says starving/depriving would be fine.
I also believe Lior was correct when he pointed out that there is no Alimony or ANYTHING if she chooses to leave without the Husband allowing her to. If the Husband divorces her or a B”D paskens that he must divorce her She would get a Kesubah. but the concept of alimony as it exists in America is not a Halachick concept.
000646,
That Rambam does NOT ever give a husband permission to strike his wife. The rest of the halacha that you omitted makes it clear that such issues are brought before a Beis Din, and witnesses are needed.
And yes, the Raavad disagrees and states that a woman is not compelled with lashes. And nowhere does it say that the husband can starve his wife. Look at Ishus 14:8: “she is not like a captive…”
Again, I think you have some pretty big misconceptions about the Torah.
Lior,
Halacha has no concept of the secular-style ongoing alimony other than the one-time kesuba payment.
You are essentially correct, and I may have mistakenly made a spurious analogy. Whereas alimony continues after a civil divorce is finalized, in halacha there is the payment of the kesuba, after which the husband has finalized things. One exception is if the ex-wife is nursing his child; he is obligated to pay her the wages of a nurse maid through 24 months. He is also obligated to pay for his kids’ needs through age 6 when the mother has custody.
My alimony reference was directed at a husbands obligations in certain circumstances before a get is given.
His obligation to support his wife while married does not obligate him to support her out of his home if she decides to separate,
I didn’t say “if she decides to separate”, I said, “in many cases where the couple R”L separates.” Separations don’t just happen when the wife walks out.
and his support obligation is fulfilled by stocking his fridge with food and the closet with clothes and inviting her to live in his home to utilize that support.
Not necessarily.
If he forces her out of the home then that obligation of his would continue wherever she is.
Can you clarify this statement? Do you mean him stocking his own fridges and closets?
His rights to her earnings can only be ended by her agreeing to waive his obligation to support her.
That is almost exactly what I said, except sometimes these waivers are enacted by a Beis Din due to unfortunate circumstances.
000646,
I wrote:
The rest of the halacha that you omitted
I apologize, you did quote the whole thing – I should read things more carefully.
Avram in MD,
I do not think I am misunderstanding anything here: as I asked Lior earlier even if I grant you that the Rambam only meant what he said to be applied in a judicial setting do you think that a society that brings women to court and has them whipped for not washing their husbands feet or making his bed etc is a moral society? (As an aside it seems from a simple reading of the text that the only time that is a judicial matter is where she says she is washing his feet or whatever and he is saying she isn’t)
00646,
do you think that a society that brings women to court and has them whipped for not washing their husbands feet or making his bed etc is a moral society?
Do you think that a woman has ever been brought before a kosher Beis Din and was lashed because she refused to wash his face, hands or feet and make his bed? I doubt it. So you’re really asking a question about an imaginary society, not any real Jewish one, past or present.
But let’s take your question one step further. Do you CV”S consider Hashem to be immoral because He commanded that a man be executed simply because he gathered some sticks on one day of a week as opposed to another?
Avram,
One more question, How do you understand what the Raavid says? (I don’t have the exact text in front of me, if you do and could post it that would be great)
Avram in MD,
1.) I believe that if a Government that was faithful to Halacha ever ruled E”Y (I think there was) and the Rambam was correct on his assessment of Torah law in the case above (I would err on the side of saying he was correct.) Then yes women were brought in front of Batei Din and lashed for not washing their husbands feet.
2.) Believing that Hashem is immoral makes no sense. I do happen to believe that PEOPLE killing other people for violating a tenet of any religion is definitely immoral. I doubt anyone would really disagree with me on that one. (unless obviously it is a tenet like “do not kill” which besides for being a religious rule is one that is made for the good of society. In a case like that killing someone becomes somewhat debatable)
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