- This topic has 74 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Honestly, I saw the first line of that post when it was up originally and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. However based on your completely nonchalant attitude, I’ll assume you haven’t asked anything. And do you seriously believe that public doesn’t make a difference?
I respect and commend your sensitivity to Shabbos, however I think that violating other Halachos without specific direction from a rav is hardly the way to go about it. Again, I very strongly suggest that you ask a question before continuing the public armchair analysis while you guess at details.
LC, for a non tinok shenishba, you would say it’s a problem?
Kapusta, I lost you there. What I do see is you seemingly making a couple of incorrect assumptions.
Also, I’m curious: what justification does your rav have for running horses on Shabbos? (I’m sure you’ve shown him this thread, because you surely wouldn’t make such accusations without asking him first.)
NB your started this thread before the horserace last Shabbos, Its true the horse ran in the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness which also occured on Shabbos, but the horse really became famous last shabbos.
Maybe for those who dont read newspapers or listen to the news it might be a new story, but most of the US public has heard of this “Frum Horse”.
Actually Bais Sheni was quite simple until King Herod came along and he made it grand
edited
Which incorrect assumptions have I made? I could certainly be wrong, but reading off of the way you posted, it appears a question has not been asked. And I don’t have to ask anything because I never said it was ok. I simply said that I was very uncomfortable with the public play by play analysis and that it would be in your best interests to ask a question before continuing, for your sake.
I’m not trying to attack you in public, and I sincerely commend your sensitivity to Kovod Shabbos, I just feel that that sensitivity may be coming at the expense of real Halacha and I suggested that it be verified. Thats all
That’s not all, because you have insinuated that I don’t have the prerequisite knowledge to post what I have, and despite the fact that you’re not trying to attack me in public, you are. You are saying that I posted lashon hora without toeles.
FTR, I’m fine with it, but if you want to be consistent with your own approach, you should ask a shailah before you hit “send” on any post which may be hurtful to someone, which could be an issur of onoas d’vorim.
Again, I am not hurt, so no worries, but the content and tone of what you posted could have been hurtful. Perhaps your judgement is that it’s worth that risk for whatever benefit you think you are achieving, but if you don’t think I can make such a judgment, to weigh the potential positives vs. negatives without first asking a shailah (and I’m not saying whether or not I did), then perhaps you shouldn’t either.
WADR, I can appreciate your Halachic knowledge but I think its unfair to expect the public to trust the “prerequisite Halachic knowledge” of an anonymous person as a final psak just as it would be to tell someone to eat at a certain restaurant because the owner has a long beard. You are certainly correct about ona’as devarim and I wish people would adopt that policy across the board, but I saw something I felt was wrong, and chose to make a comment because I can say it directly (as opposed to starting a forum of my own and posting my opinion there for example… effectively the same thing?), though I think you would agree ona’as devarim and public lashon hara are not the same thing. I didn’t tell you not to post it, I simply told you that because its public, it would be best to verify with a rav. Once verified, I have no problem with it.
Again, my intention is not to mock publicly and I sincerely apologize if you feel that I have or if you felt my tone was too intense. I still feel very strongly about this but I said my piece and frankly I think we’re basically going in circles at this point.
I don’t really read/watch outside news sources so I did not know anything about the frum angle of this story until I read it here. All I can really add is that I think you are wrong about some of the chillul Hashem comments in regard to their attendance. I am under the impression a chillul Hashem would involve non Jews, or those far removed, seeing a frum Jew doing something like this. The problem you may not realize is that many if not most would have no idea that half the avairos you all have so kindly tallied are even improper. Growing up as a more modern Jew, I had many friends who attended lectures/conferences on Shabbos by pre paying and not writing etc. and I never knew it was wrong until much later in life. If you told me this family used to be secular and they have made so many changes in their lives in order to keep shabbos, or that they had a more limited religious education to the best of their knowledge, I would be only impressed. I don’t want to discuss or know where they are holding. If they hand me a check I can research it myself, but so much of what they are accused of violating is not things many of the public would be noticing. And it may very well end up being lashon hora, pure and simple.
And for those who insist we need to show our love for Hashem by speaking out against it’s transgressors, first look thru your own backyard. We have many baal habatim and gvirim who are making money from businesses that feed basar v cholov to Jews, and other things who are honored and respected and their money is in many of your pockets.
Does this negate the actions of the above? No. But you are either fighting for shabbos, or you aren’t. And if you are fighting for shabbos, then don’t pick and choose which transgressors you find more offensive or public to make your case.
I think some people are mixing up Chilul Shabbos with Chilul Hashem
My issue with this is not the shabbos angle, but rather the “frum Horse” and the chabad angle along with the gambling and the idea that seems to come out that its ok for a Tzdekah to take money from someone who makes money from gambling
Syag, I am not fighting transgressors. I am pointing out transgressions so that people don’t think it’s muttar.
I’m not saying he’s bad. I have no idea as to his level of knowledge; he may very well be a shogeg not a meizid.
Chillul Hashem most definitely does apply to frum Jews. The gemara I’m aware of referring to chillul Hashem is referring to actions done in front of frum people.
I don’t know which other Shabbos transgressions you think I should be fighting. I have written here about such things as the Shabbos App and the Kosher Switch; if you know of other areas which should be spoken about, I’ll try to look into it.
ZD, an aveirah done in public most definitely is a chillul Hashem. I don’t know why you think otherwise.
DY
Do you see the difference between someone who drives on Shabbos and a Frum person who cheats on their taxes and then is arrested on TV?
One is basically between the person and hashem, hashem can decide what to do
The other makes the general public think badly of jews and they are thieves and that is much harder to recover from.
he may very well be a shogeg
(This too which I wanted to mention earlier but I’m already halfway out of this discussion)
Had the owners kept quiet about judaism and just see the race quietly , thats one thing however they turned this into a ‘Frum Horse” and thats as they say A horse of the differnt color
ZD, yes, there’s a difference, but public aveiros bein adam lamakom are also chillul Hashem.
They want to drive around on Shabbos??!! I don’t think anything as bad as that was done here, and I don’t see how that can be blamed on this story.
DY: I think he meant leave the RV parked over Shabbos (I’d imagine in a scenic area) and perhaps tour on foot.
Mammele, in the techum or out? Carrying something or not?
It’s okay to take a walk on Shabbos. They can sleep and eat Shabbos seudos in the RV, and take walks afterwards.
Perhaps they can even park within proximity of a shul and have a minyan and krias haTorah.
So, why is this an issue?
Tchum Shabbos wasnt an issue at Belmont. There are houses on the other side of the Cross Island certainly less than a mile from the track and there are houses directly to the South of Belmont an Im sure to the east as well (I drive on the Cross Island alot so I am familar with that area as seen from the Cross Island)
“Tchum Shabbos wasnt an issue at Belmont. There are houses on the other side of the Cross Island certainly less than a mile from the track and there are houses directly to the South of Belmont an Im sure to the east as well (I drive on the Cross Island alot so I am familar with that area as seen from the Cross Island)”
So a mile is the shiur for t’chum? This is radically new interpretation of halacha. 70 Amos is the determining measure, not a mile.
I’m not sure how the techum around Belmont became an issue…
From FJJ:
Rabbi Avrohom Lefkowitz
Rav & Rosh Kollel, Kollel Bnai Torah Lakewood, NJ
“SHABBOS AND THE AMERICAN PHAROAH”
own a horse that races on Shabbos. There are four Halachic issues that one must consider when discussing this question.
1) Shvisas Behemto – the requirement that ones animal should rest on Shabbos
2) Mechamer Achar Behemto – leading or following an animal on Shabbos
3) TheIssur of riding a horse on Shabbos
4) Sechar Shabbos – earning money on Shabbos
Let us review these issues and see if they apply to the case of the horse American Pharoah.
1) Shvisas Behemto:
2) Mechamer Achar Behemto:
3): The Issur of riding a horse on Shabbos
The Mishnah in Beitza 36b says: One is not permitted to ride an animal on Shabbos and Yom Tov. The Gemorah explains that riding an animal on Shabbos and Yom Tov is prohibited because of a Gezerah, one riding an animal may lead to cutting off a branch, (a Melocha of Kotzer) to use as a whip to move the animal along.
4) Sechar Shabbos:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.