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A few weeks ago, there was a car alarm that was blaring outside my window at two in the morning. Neither my wife nor I were able to sleep — and we both had places we needed to be in the morning. I didn’t know who the car belonged to, but since it’s a heavily Jewish neighborhood, there’s probably a better than even chance the car belonged to a Jew.
After about an hour, I finally lost my patience and called the police. They came, did their thing, and the alarm stopped.
Later on, I was wondering about what I did and realized that I am now probably a moser, since they probably at least gave the guy a ticket.
The question is, how does one get rid of the status of “moser?” Or am I now stuck with it for the rest of my life?
The Wolf
Ask the car owner for mechila.
“v’chol hakodem lehargo zocheh” Congratulations.
The shulchan aruch says there are times where you are allowed to call the malchus on a guy, which includes certain instances where he is causing you a continuous hezek and there is no other way to stop it. See the meforshim for further details.
Why do you think they even got a ticket? When police are summoned to get involved in a “disturbance of the peace” such as loud music or crowds gathering on local streets they generally do not give tickets. If someone resists it can lead to arrest, but I’ve never heard of giving tickets to solve the problem. So you didn’t cause him a financial loss and you are not a moiser.
I heard b’shem R’ Matisyahu Salomon Shlita that if someone is breaking the law and there is no viable alternative to calling the non-jewish authorities, there is no din Moser. This should be checked with LOr of course, but if you think about it – it makes sense and also the references to Moser in Shas etc. are all cases where the guy is innocent.
Stand by the car until he comes.
Yes, he can be mochel you.
on the ball: Incorrect. It is still mesira even if the guy is guilty.
Wolfish-
What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I can’t cite sources, but AFAIK mesirah applies even if the party is guilty. However, it is sometimes muttar (obviously, AYLOR) when beis din is not an option. This might be such a case.
I don’t think they give tickets for car alarms (although they might technically be able to, I don’t know for sure).
I also can’t imagine (again, sorry, no source) that one can’t do teshuva on this.
Wolf, you are usually an advocate of AYLOR; could you please let us know what he says?
I have a MOreh Heter.
The din is Avid Inish Dina D’Nafshei B’Makom P’saidah. As such, you are within your rights to break into the car and rip out the battery, thereby stopping the alarm. By using a proxy, you saved the owner money (even with a ticket), and are not Chayiv.
See, easy fix.
What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.
The cost of the ticket is probably less than the cost of the hours of your last sleep. He should be asking YOU for mechila.
My wife once had to call the police about someone who was illegally blocking our driveway. It was a possible pikuach nefesh issue as she is a physician there was the possibility that she might have been called into the hospital in an emergency.
I have a MOreh Heter.
I also had a Morah Heather. She was Morah Leah’s assistant. ?
Wasnt the whole concept of being a “moser” something that shouldnt really apply anymore in a “malchus shel chesed” like America?
There are laws here that protect all citizens equally and it’s not like back in the shtetl where you could be arrested and detained for any offensive real or imagined.
This whole business of not getting the cops involved, from minor disputes to full fledged aiding and abetting of child molesters seems really misplaced here.
Unless people are more concerned with the public perception of the religious community, then the whole situation starts making more sense.
*cue posters with ancedotal evidence about how American jurisprudence is really all very anti-semtic*
And for heavens sake, please dont throw SMR @ me.
“What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.”
If he is in fact a moser, why wouldn’t it apply?
PAA,
I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)
Just because I could have done it myself doesn’t mean that it’s not mesirah if I call the cops to do it.
Not true. The cops can be your shaliach if you can do it yourself, and we say Yesh Shliach Lechumra, and the ticket (based on NYC budget cuts) is only a means to pay for the work done.
A couple of points / thoughts:
Pac man – a source?
“I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)”
The original question asked by Mr. Wolf was how can he get rid of his moser status. Which means that he is taking for granted that he is a moser.
It is not an exact quote, and the Rambam says it does apply. Two strikes. Open up a hilchos chovel umazik perek 8.
What was his other strike?
DaasYochid
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.
Count ’em yourself.
“and the Rambam says it does apply.”
The Rambam discusses a case of calling the police for a car alarm which may or may not have resulted in a ticket?
The din of “Kol hakodem l’horgoi” only applies BEFORE one is commiting mesirah in order to stop him, once he commited mesirah there is no point in killing him and is not allowed except if one has a chazakah of mesirah (3 times) because then we can assume he will do it again. (see Ch”M 333)
Here’s the Ramba”m,
? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ?????? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ?????? ???? ??–??? ???? ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??, ??? ??????–???? ??????; ??? ????? ??????, ???.
Not an exact quote, true, it says zacha, not zoche. That’s not a paraphrase, it’s a misspelling.
That phrase is referring to a moser, and since I am maintaining that someone who calls the police to have them shut off someone’s car alarm is not a moser, it doesn’t apply here.
Please find me the Ramba”m which says that calling the cops for a car alarm is mesirah.
Boy, tough crowd.
Pac Man; Maybe the car owner should ask mechillah of all the residents whose sleep he/she disturbed. Gezel Sheinah is considered Gezel.
PAA,
Thanks, I posted before yours was on the board.
And you’re correct, I didn’t mean to answer according to the OP’s assumption.
I beleive that Rashi in the begining of Parshas mishpotim states clearly that Mesira is ossur and a Chillul Hashem even in cases where the “arkous” (goyishe courts) have the exact same laws as Beis Din.
In addition I believe that there is a teshuva between Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Feivel Cohen shlita in which they both clearly state that from a halachic standpoint Hilchos Mesira are fully applicable in America.
However I would hesitate to think Mesirah applied in your case since the intent was simply to have the police have the person shut his alarm and not to administer an “oinesh” however please consult your LOR who is knowledgeable in this area of Halacha.
metrodriver: I answered Wolf based upon on his self-declaration of wrongdoing, and per his request for information on how to atone. I’ve learned better than to try to talk Wolf out of thinking he is World Sinner #1 or even simply that what he declared as sinful is anything but.
Please find me the Ramba”m which says that calling the cops for a car alarm is mesirah.
Al pi pashtus veteran would appear to be correct. Why should it not be so considered – or anything other than simple mesira for that matter – barring extenuating circumstances? If you want to argue against veteran’s assertion of mesira based on that the alarm was waking him up, you need to state that in your defense.
Probably not mesira, but if there is Chaverim in your area, the right thing to do would have been to call them first and see if they could help.
If you want to argue against veteran’s assertion of mesira based on that the alarm was waking him up, you need to state that in your defense.
Yes that, and the fact that a ticket was not his intention, nor a definite consequence.
I don’t necessarily know that it was muttar to call the police; what I am saying is simply that it would have to be vaday mesirah for the din of ??? ????? ??????, ??? to apply.
“Gezel Sheinah is considered Gezel.”
Really? Gezel Sheina is not mentioned even once in all of shas and poskim. The first mention of it is in sefarim within the past hundred or so years. (There is however a concept of hezek shaina – see bava basra and the meiri)
The first mention of it is in sefarim within the past hundred or so years.
And the sefarim of the past hundred years are chopped liver that made things up??
What is needed in order to create the status moser? Just by calling the police automaticly create someone a moser?
are people here actually suggesting that this situation is one where the so-called moser (not even sure the label of moser applies here) is subject to being killed justifiably? for calling a cop about a car alarm? has anyone here actually asked a rav about this particular type of situation, and been told that this even qualifies as mesira?
Reb Patur, that is the actual Halachik status. Gezel Shina is just a fancy name for that type of Hezek.
i am far from a posek so call your local rav. however, i will say one thing. the siman in shulchan aruch that klach quoted (C”M 388 )definitely sounds like there is no mesira in this case. (metzair rabim)
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