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It means that it is a machloket. I was aware of R’Ovadiah’s tshuvah on the matter; not everyone agrees with him on this.
Do you have a source for anyone near R’ Ovadiah’s stature (or the gedolim he mentions) who say it’s mutar?
and I encourage those who don’t have one to give it away
Now THAT’S a feat I’d like to see. 🙂
It’s only a little bit more difficult than giving it away if you have one. 🙂
Do you have a source for anyone near R’ Ovadiah’s stature (or the gedolim he mentions) who say it’s mutar?
Such a source doesn’t exist.
you have a source for anyone near R’ Ovadiah’s stature (or the gedolim he mentions) who say it’s mutar?
Such a source doesn’t exist.
Not even a daas yochid? 😉
80- Lol. I love the way you put everything in perspective.
And for the record – no, we don’t own a tv (as I’m sure you expected). And I’m NOT sorry.
i think kids who dont have a tv think its a very big thing to watch so when they could, they watch as much as possible. a kid who is allowed to watch whenever he wants doesnt think its such a big deal, so they dont end up watching as much. and so, when they do, u could monitor it. tvs arent only for shows and movies. i dont know why everyone is protesting its an aveirah to have one. theres all the news stories and weather, and closings and such. its not soooooo bad.
Anything you get on tv you could probably get on the internet. I did not grow up with a tv and I’m happy about it b/c I know kids who did and scientifically its proven that children behave better if they don’t watch tv. It has news and wheather,etc. but it also has a lot of not good stuff. Especially in your first year of marriage you want time for yourselves, not sitting at the tv for hours.
uh yeah it IS SO bad!!! do you really think thats all people watch on the tv?? news weather and sports? you’ve gotta be kinding me! just flipping thru the channels without watching can give you enough tumah to last a lifetime!!
i think kids who dont have a tv think its a very big thing to watch so when they could, they watch as much as possible. a kid who is allowed to watch whenever he wants doesnt think its such a big deal, so they dont end up watching as much.
You’ve got a fascinating perspective on chinuch. You apparently feel that whatever is bad for our children, we should give them more of, so that they should get less of it.
and so, when they do, u could monitor it.
To follow up on your logic, you probably mean that it should be monitored to ensure that the content is inappropriate, because if they would not view some inappropriate material at home, they would end up watching even more of it away from home.
its the same kinda thing as when people say that if you shelter your kids its gonna backfire so you SHOULD give them an education of things so they dont looking for it by themselves….wow warped like crazy.
i dont know why everyone is protesting its an aveirah to have one.
Unfortunately, not everyone is protesting. By the way, you’re being very conservative; according to the teshuva of R’ Ovadiah, Shlit”a, no less than six aveiros are involved.
theres all the news stories and weather, and closings and such.
I will not concede that the news (or even in some cases the weather) is okay, but even if it was, why would the radio not be good enough for that? In an honest moment, you would have to admit that the purpose of the overwhelming majority of television owners is entertainment.
its not soooooo bad.
I beg to differ.
Anyone agree with my angle?(Scroll up)
“i think kids who dont have a tv think its a very big thing to watch so when they could, they watch as much as possible. a kid who is allowed to watch whenever he wants doesnt think its such a big deal, so they dont end up watching as much.”
You’ve got a fascinating perspective on chinuch. You apparently feel that whatever is bad for our children, we should give them more of, so that they should get less of it.
I think the poster is referring to “forbidden fruits taste sweet”.
Putting content aside, there is also another point to consider – medium.
Since TV viewing is passive, with stimulus being external, I think that it ruins concentration abilities. That is the case even if the content is appropriate.
(Similarly computer games. That is why I wouldn’t want my children playing them. I did, and I feel it has affected my concentration skills.)
Anyone agree with my angle?(Scroll up)
Common sense is very uncommon.
(That’s an agreement, BTW)
I think the poster is referring to “forbidden fruits taste sweet”.
*kapusta*
Yes, I understood that. I think I’ll start feeding my kids non-kosher food at home so that they don’t eat so much tarfus when they go out of the house.
DY,
In general, in Chinuch you have to strike a balance. Sometimes, its better to expose your kids moderately then have them exposed some other way. Knowledge is power and that’s different for every child. Some children do better totally isolated. Some do worse.
Mod80, I’ve been to plenty of bars and was not surrounded by debauchery. Its a matter of knowing which ones and going at the right (or “wrong” LOL) times. My office does Happy Hour rather frequently and let me tell you that at 5 pm, most bars are filled with men and women in their business suits having a beer or two.
“hey.. thats a lot like what me and my wife do. we like to go into bars and pool halls and all kinds of low places in las vegas. then we have religious discussions about how untznius the women were and how vulgar all the talk was. its a real eye-opener and has raised our consciousness quite a bit.”
Mod-80, that’s a little disingenuous.
Moderation is often the best path. As one of my son’s Yeshiva ketana rebbe’s said to me years ago, “if the programs on TV now [and this was in the 1990’s that he said this] were the same as the shows we watched when we were kids (50’s and 60’s), no one would be making an uproar”.
True, those shows emphasized family values, parents were highly respected, and everyone was fully clothed.
DY,
In general, in Chinuch you have to strike a balance.
I would never feed them outright treif foods, only “non-kosher” foods (no hechsher).
?? ??? sarcasm.
What the balance is depends on your values. if one considers the trash put out today as “treif”, which I do, it wouldn’t figure into the balance. I would never allow secular entertainment in my home (with the exception of a few pre-screened children’s books). because 99.9% reflect non-Torah values. As a balance, I might allow some frum produced videos, although my kids’ time would be spent more productively learning, reading gedolim biographies and similar productive literature, playing sports or other games, or other healthy recreation.
Anyone who compromises what impure and unhealthy (spiritually and emotionally) media their children are exposed to is making a tragic mistake. (Not to excuse adults exposing themselves to spiritual trash; we’re discussing chinuch.)
“hey.. thats a lot like what me and my wife do. we like to go into bars and pool halls and all kinds of low places in las vegas. then we have religious discussions about how untznius the women were and how vulgar all the talk was. its a real eye-opener and has raised our consciousness quite a bit.”
Mod-80, that’s a little disingenuous.
I disagree. I think using sarcasm and exaggeration is a legitimate and honest way to bring out a point.
There are 6 shuls in las Vegas and its one of the faster growing jewish communities
8 Kosher Restaurants
1 Mikvah
disingenuous
actually i think it was ingenious.
Thank you,Daas.
actually i think it was ingenious.
I agree, and think that enlightenedjew should learn to spell better also. 🙂
DY,
I’m going to assume that with your sarcasm you understood my point. And hey, even you admitted you do allow some secular media in your home (pre-screened books).
As kids get older, they dictate more and more where their chinuch is. Now of course, there are absolute limits, but every parent knows that some kids need different boundaries. You may allow some children to read more secular books than others. You may allow your child at some point to eat a hechsher which while technically kosher is not something you buy for your home.
This issue is neither black nor white. But letting my son watch Mickey Mouse vs reading the book is virtually the same (and I mean that literally – they right the Mickey Mouse Clubhouse books in the same format) is not harming his spiritual health. [Which is not to say you are doing anything wrong by not allowing your kids to]
I’m going to assume that with your sarcasm you understood my point.
I thought I did, but from your latest post, I’m not sure. I’ll explain.
I frankly am quite skeptical about anyone owning a television and being able to control it’s use to the extent that nothing is ever viewed which, for example, I wouldn’t let in my house in the form of a book.
That’s why I assumed that your earlier post referred to a compromise in content.
In your more recent post, however, you seem to be making the point that the only content allowed in your home would be consistent with what I would allow in mine, only through a different medium.
To this, I respond that there’s so little of this type of programming available on television (to my second-hand current knowledge) that, certainly as a child grows a little older, there would not be any benefit, regarding preventing unmonitored viewing, to allowing the child to watch TV at home. (You would also have to lock up the TV when you’re not home to monitor, which is impractical and has other negatives as well.
It is also forbidden to allow oneself exposure to temptation (chaza”l make statements such as “??? ????????? ??????”, and “?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????”) unless given no option (“???? ???? ??????”). (There are ????? about this, based on ????? in several places.)
So to my understanding, owning a television was declared forbidden by the ?????? for these reasons, despite the theoretical possibility that anything viewed on it in a particular home is “kosher”.
Daas Yochid
“I frankly am quite skeptical about anyone owning a television and being able to control it’s use…”
“It is also forbidden to allow oneself exposure to temptation”…
Kind of sounds like the Internet, which you Daas Yochid are able to use without being tempted I assume??
My internet is filtered and blocked with a password.
DY,
I’m not saying that we have the same standard, but that you do allow some things in your home.
And actually, its very easy to make sure my kids don’t watch TV – our cable box has a card in it. Remove the card and nothing is accessible. Take the card with you.
Filtered internet can actually let in some inappropriate content. How do I know? We recently added filtering because I was getting some ridiculous popup with internet explorer (my husband uses Opera, so no problems LOL) and some things still come through.
I acknowledge that your rabbonim have assured TV, but mine have not. Therefore, it is kosher for me.
Anyway, this is way off the point of the OP 🙂
“My internet is filtered and blocked with a password”
the passowrd you set?
I can also restrict TV channels as well…
No harm in watching the news,a ball game, or Mickey Mouse Club House…
SJSinNYC, my community and Rabbis have not deemed it assur either, so for me it is Kosher….
If it aint for you, thats fine, but to say it is 100% assur is not 100% accurate either…
DY: Thanks for your intelligent and honest posts.
SJS: The Internet is horrible. BUT, similarily to DY, I have a filter and use it for my business. AND I have a password. TV is solely for entertainment. So I don’t exactly think the two are interchangeable. If you want to own a TV, then so be it. But don’t go around saying it’s ok.
As for your Rabbi who permits you to own one… Well, there are Conservative Rabbis who “allow” to drive on shabbos. So for “them” it’s muttar.
“There are 6 shuls in las Vegas and its one of the faster growing jewish communities”
Let’s deal with 1 problem at a time…
MindOverChatter,
Thanks for the compliment, and for answering for me. I would have answered about the same as you did.
I would probably not have used the analogy of the conservative rabbis, because there’s a big difference between them and the rabbis being discussed here who supposedly are matir TV (although I haven’t seen any names mentioned), but the point is still well taken.
mikehall12382,
As for the filter and password, the filter is for the whole family, including me, and the password is for the kids (who I wouldn’t even want on YWN without a parent present). No, the filter is not perfect, I’m told, but to find sites which slip by, one would have to really know what he’s doing (it’s impossible, AFAIK, to access the forbidden sites without use a wifi card and an unlocked signal from a neighbor,and there is none near me).
I personally know of a well-known yeshivish posek who gave a psak regarding a specific case to get one.
Sometimes things aren’t always black & white.
MindOverChatter…your argument regarding conservative rabbis is silly. Firstly we are discussing orthodox Judaism, as we all know there is a world of difference between orthodoxy and the conservative movement…
Secondly, driving on shabbos is strictly forbiden by all Ortho Rabbis, bringing in a conservative point of view, is well, pointless in your argument regarding watching TV.
Your talking apples and oranges by comparing soemthing that is clearly forbiden ( except in extrem circumstances) and watching TV, which regardless of your personal view point, is in fact not assur per say…
while it may not be for you, and while you may follow the teachings of Rabbi’s who say it is assur, there are many highly regarded Ortho Rabbi’s who do not hold that view point….
And regardless of whatever filters you and DY may have on your computer, there are many prominent Rabbi’s who clearly ban the internet, no exception…Yet, despite this you don’t seem to have a problem going on line…and the coffee room is not “work”
you are in no position to judge, if it aint for you great, but please dont pretend to be the “decider”
Mikehall: First of all, I didn’t mean to actually compare MO with Conservative (I thought that was obvious). My point was, that there’s no such thing as it’s “muttar for us”. We all have the same Torah. If a Rabbi doesn’t pasken precisely as the Torah does, than perhaps it’s time to look for another one. (Yes, I KNOW there was no TV back then. You know what I mean.)
Secondly, as I pointed out before, we are using internet “Bleis breira” – there’s no choice! After all, I’ve got a family to feed etc. You almost can’t run a business nowadays without Internet. Would this be my first choice? Of course not. But just like we sometimes have to visit Manhattan for a Dr’s appointment, or take a subway, we sometimes have to use internet. And we must learn to deal with it. Unfortunately, the world is terribly dirty and one must work on shmiras einayim.
And last, but not least: I never judged. All I said was that you shouldn’t make it sound as if you’re doing the perfectly right thing. After all, it’s easier to have a TV around than to keep it out. It’s so much harder to keep shmiras einayim. But Yiddishkeit isn’t about taking the easy way out. Don’t pretend it’s “Eilu veilu”.
Daas Yochid: Thank you. I’m also waiting for the anonymous posek reveal his identity.
there are many highly regarded Ortho Rabbi’s who do not hold that view point….
So far not one has been named here. What you consider “highly regarded” might very well differ from what I do (at least for this discussion).
I use the word “posek” intentionally. Someone may hold a very important pulpit or other rabbinical position, and may indeed do excellent work for Klal Yisroel, but is unqualified to render halachic decisions.
there are many prominent Rabbi’s who clearly ban the internet, no exception
I don’t know of any (although there are probably some, especially in Eretz Yisroel). I know of many who don’t ban it outright, although do ban it if there is no need for it.
Yet, despite this you don’t seem to have a problem going on line…and the coffee room is not “work”
Once it’s available, why should using it for other “kosher” purposes be a problem?
I find some of your arguments to be ad hominem, and not related to the actual discussion. Even if I were a hypocrite for having a discussion on the internet taking a negative view of television viewing, it wouldn’t change whether or not my position is correct. (It would make my position more difficult to accept, human nature being what it is, which is why I’ve felt the need to explain how I’m absolutely not being hypocritical.)
I personally know of a well-known yeshivish posek who gave a psak regarding a specific case to get one.
Since the reason it’s asur is based on the content and not the actual medium, it’s entirely possible that in a specific case where there is a need and the content can be carefully monitored, a legitimate rov might allow it. But that would not change the fact that it is generally asur. (This is based on the ????? which I alluded to earlier.)
“I agree, and think that enlightenedjew should learn to spell better also. :)”
DY, thanks for the ad hominem attack, that really disproved my point. Disingenuous is spelled D-I-S-I-N-G-E-N-U-O-U-S, just like I wrote.
Mindovermatter, we may all have the same Torah, but we all get different piskei halacha from our Rabbonim. The halachic process allows for a lot of variety in interpretation.
As I’ve said in the past, I don’t name my Rabbi online. He is NOT a pulpit Rabbi and has chosen to be private. Its not up to me to reveal it. You are welcome to trust me or not, that’s up to you.
DY, truthfully, I wonder if “kosher” sites are often more of a problem. You get lulled into a false sense of its kashrus and end up reading lashon hara and other negative information. I have to remind myself sometimes that:
1) The internet attracts a lot of crazy people
2) People feel like they can insult others because they are anonymous
3) One person (or even a few people) online rarely represent their “kind” of people
4) Some people are just trolls
Again, I have no problem with people restricting their TV usage. Hey, I told the OP that I recommended not getting one. But in all honesty, I think the internet is a much bigger problem than TV. Even filtered.
SJSinNYC…well said….
I just don’t understand how people can claim TV is Assur, but the Internet is fine as long it is for work, have filters etc…
The bottom line is evil lurks in both places, and one should be on guard when using both.
However, both do have their advantages as well…
DY, thanks for the ad hominem attack, that really disproved my point. Disingenuous is spelled D-I-S-I-N-G-E-N-U-O-U-S, just like I wrote.
It was a joke, not an attack. Hence the “:)”.
Gotcha, DY. Please accept my apologies!
BS”D
The famous letter of 1979 tried and succeeded in making OWNING a TV into a “wedge” issue between followers of Rav Yoshe Ber and followers of the Agudah Roshei Yeshiva (The poskim of the time (such as Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov & Rav Ruderman) did not sign it, IIRC). This is one of the main reasons why the “Yeshiva World” is so against TV, Lehavdil Ben’nenu Ubain “Ha’Amim” (sic).
It has been said many times by the rabbonim that if they could Assur Internet they would (and they tried, at first), probably for the same reason, to make it a “wedge” issue. When they saw no one (working) would listen, they changed their minds to what the Tzibbur thought was doable (as per the concept of “Gezairah SheHatzibbur Yachol Laamod Ba”), while still maintaining the guidelines against the real Issurim. In EY, the Charadim were able to make it such, due to the lack of members in the outside world (which is after all, against Charaidi Hashkafa anyway).
Telling a child that watching a TV is “poison” is counterproductive. Always tell the truth, say what the issues are (Ervah, Tznius, waste of time, etc.). You don’t want to be raising the next version of Tzaddok & Baysus.
For the OP I simply ask: Why have something in your home that will distract you from one another? At least wait until you are bored of each other! (If that CV ever happens).
Edited
DY, truthfully, I wonder if “kosher” sites are often more of a problem. You get lulled into a false sense of its kashrus “
That statement is truer than you think. Unrelated to the Internet, someone we know attended a comedy program that was billed as “kosher,” in order to attract a frum crowd. It was held at a Glatt kosher facility, so the word “kosher” clearly was intended to refer to the program, not the food. While some of the entertainment apparently was ok, some of it was NOT and its content was of questionable “kashrus” for a program billed specifically as such. Enough said. Our friends said they walked out at that point.
Wish the above post was not edited…I was interested in what gavra had to say…
I think it’s time we allow freedom of expression here….as long as you don’t personally attack someone, or bring up specific Loshan Hora about someone etc…
mikehall12382
It was edited because I wanted to add a point that was unrelated to the topic at hand, but a personal pet peeve. The edit was fair.
enlightenedjew,
Apology accepted (although I took no offense, it was an honest mistake).
I now ask you mechila for not being more clear, and therefore causing insult. (I should have added this to my earlier post).
SJS and oomis,
I don’t disagree to the perils of even supposedly “kosher” sites.
Although I normally consider it distasteful when someone bashes this site while on it, I will point out that there are some threads on which I won’t comment because of the content (and some cases in which I did and later regretted it).
It’s still far better than the other junk out there.
DY,
Can you clarify regarding what content you will not post?
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