Getting kids to listen to you

The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

The carrot and stick method. Works with my kids every time.

Try “How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk”

by Elaine Mazlish and Adele Faber.

Ironically, kids may be listening to you even if it does not look like they are. On the other hand, they may look attentive, but are just letting it go in one ear and out the other. My point is, you never know; but you just have to keep on addressing matters as you see fit regardless of how kids seem to react. More may sink in over time than you would ever realize.

There are many different parenting styles. You and your spouse need to choose one that works for you.

You can make charts for listening, give allowance, have consequences, have family discussions and use active listening.

Some books that I like are Make Me Don’t Break Me, by R. Moshe Gans, Parent Effectiveness Training, by Thomas Gordon, and Helicopters, Drill Sergeants and Consultants by by Jim Fay.

Good luck, I recommend that whatever style you choose you find someone who will guide you.

The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

You are all terrible people and terrible parents, and it is your fault that your kids are all keeping half shabbos and going OTD.

Obedient? Defiant? These are words you use when talking about your kids? Is your kid a pet dog or a horse or a slave that you expect obedience from? Who says you are entitled to obedience from your kids? Who says they shouldn’t defy you?

You find it annoying when they don’t obey? Too bad on you–your kids’ job is not to make your happy. Your job is to take care of your kids and give to them without expectation of return–just like Hashem gives to us without expectation of return.

When your newborn cries all night and won’t stop–you take care of him anyway and love him just the same. Well, that’s how you should treat your 20 year old who sneaks out Friday night and drinks beer with his buddies.

It starts with a positive loving relationship with your children, that also include proper discipline when necessary with fairness.

Communication is also key. It is important to teach children how to think in order for them to make proper decisions when you are not around. One technique, which works in a general situation, without any danger or immediate action needed is by asking a series of questions that lead them to a proper conclusion instead of just telling them or demanding something.

Children will feel more respected and when they get it, a light bulb will seem to go off. Just be careful, that a smart kid will then try to use the technique on you.

Where did the OP say its about kids going OTD? Maybe she’s talking about a toddler ? Why the rant?

The parents who are hung up on having their kids “obey” them make ridiculous demands, and the kids learn that the parents have their own interests in mind, and then don’t obey anything.

Not sure what you mean by “hung up”, but I think it’s important that kids listen to their parents. Just like Hashem thinks it’s important that we listen to Him.

obedient adjective

<i>an obedient son.</i>

defiant

adjective

1.

characterized by defiance; boldly resistant or challenging:

<i>a defiant attitude.</i>

(dictionary.com)

what’s the issue?

The issue is that you think you have a right for your kids to be “obeying or willing to obey; complying with or submissive to authority.” You don’t.

You have that right but it is you who has to exercise that right.

Remember that having them listen to you is about Chinuch and not convenience. A noticeable difference between the two is that when it is about Chinuch you are ready to jump up and approach the child, whereas if it is about convenience that would be a contradiction to the request.

A child realizes when the parent is asking from laziness or even tiredness. It is easy to take that for granted and ignore it. Then you ask where is the drink, he shrugs it off and you give up. Next time gets even harder.

So one answer to the question is, don’t be lazy. Don’t let it pass. Be ready to jump up and get it done or help, prod, encourage or demand what needs to get done.

But should you teach them that at the expense of teaching good middos and to not be power hungry and petty, and to not get upset when people don’t get upset when people don’t bow to youw whims, and to not use the Torah as a tool for achieving your selfish desires?

Of course not.

Perhaps a little balance?

Perhaps a lot.

And I will tell you how to teach him to obey Hashem. You obey Hashem.

That is #1. But there’s more.

I don’t think we’re disagreeing much about parenting here, but I see you as having jumped all over the OP and subsequent posters who think there’s an important part of chinuch called discipline, and that that was unfair. I think it’s fair to discuss discipline and obedience, and it doesnt have to mean to the exclusion of other forms of chinuch, and there is no reason to think that they all want obedience for selfish reasons.

Right, so we are not disagreeing about parenting, we are disagreeing with how cynical to be about the motivations of people we don’t know.

No, we aren’t disagreeing at all.

Well, at the very least, we’re disagreeing about whether we’re disagreeing.

Hopefully you’re not in my time zone. If you are, I’ve got no symapthy for you.

One little addition (actually big addition). You have to set the right example. How are you with your parents? Do you show respect? (not blind obedience). You have to be a responsible adult, respectful and honest. Most of the time, though not always, character flaws that you see in kids are a mere reflection of the behaviors of their parents.

It is excellent point, Barry, as Popa said. Yes, we do have to set the right example & try to treat our own parents with respect.. be honest etc.

But the last bit about ‘most of the time…reflection of .. parents’ is not true in real life, at least IMHO.

Parents need to do their best, but at the end of the day, each child is born with their own bechira.

This idea of ‘most of the time’ reminds me of the myth in the world where every time a kid goes off the derech, it’s the parents’ fault, & every time a kid has problems, it’s the parents fault.

Yes, a parent’s input can make a huge impact on their kids’ lives, but many other factors can too.

Wishing e/o S”D with bringing their kids up.

The only reason I am even considering joining this discussion is that I’m coming to the CR straight after my first babysitting stint in about two years. But here goes…

Carrot and Stick. Not too much carrot as to reward bad behaviour (Off the point, Spellcheck, if you try and give me American spelling once more, I’ll dismember the annoying paperclip), not too much stick as to inspire resentment. It works.

Talk to them with respect. This does not mean flattering them or talking to them as adults. Just respect.

be firm. If you go back on your word once, they’ll push you to do it again.

Be their friend. What I mean to say is if you are generally nice to a kid, and really listen to them, they are far more likely to listen to you at a later stage. I don’t mean act like a friend rather than a parent, just that negativity alone does not get results.

And finally, every single bit of this advice will go straight out of the window when I get kids of my own, and am just desperate to go to sleep. But it will serve nicely as a diary entry to remind me in future years that I once had what could be considered principles.

Popa, you asked how do I know it’s a myth?

I’ve thought about this, but not sure how to answer. One thing I am sure is that I’m sure.

Begins even with little things: Once went to PTA, & they report about my angelic daughter,teacher’s dream etc.. & of course add on that they can see what a good home she comes from, so well brought up, da da da. On same day, my (then) very mischievous 2 1/2 year old did some climbing, while I tried to stop him, & s/o yelled at me “You don’t teach your kids how to behave?!!”… That amazing girl & ‘terrible’ boy brought up by same parents, I got misplaced credit for 1 (she was a natural ‘gutta’) & misplaced criticism for the other (he was a ball of mischief & I was doing way more than the average mother to ‘educate’ him)….(He got past that age & became really easy B”H).

If it was only with little ones, wouldn’t be such a big deal. But I’ve seen with plenty of teenagers (B”H not my own). After parents did amazing job, giving gallons of love, gentle discipline, excellent sholom bayis loads of tefillos…& still something goes wrong eg. kid goes off derech, or eg. kid becomes mentally ill… Not enough the deep heartache? No, on top of that, they need society smugly judging them too…. “Oh, parents were too strict” “Parents were too relaxed & didn’t give enough discipline” “Something weird in that house” “That boy is violent.. his father must be like that too behind closed doors” “Kid had nervous breakdown b/c parents pressured him too much” etc etc.

Of course, if parents are doing things wrong eg. being abusive, eg. not providing enough love, eg.arguing with their spouse a lot… then yes, it impacts kids very badly. But not every case of kids having issues is b/c of parents.

Surely parents see with their own kids, how some are just born with easygoing natures, & without doing much, they’re happy & polite & easy to raise. And others are born into same home, & somehow every time there’s a fight, they’re there. Every time s/o’s crying, they’re around… always causing trouble. Parents work very hard trying to tame & gently encourage the difficult child.

(This ‘difficult child’ phenomenon isn’t something fixed. Often the one who was an angel at age 5, can be a difficult teen, & the one who wrecks everything as a 2 year old, can be a really sunny 12 year old…)

There’s genetics (the nature as opposed to nurture), friends, neighbors, teachers, rebbis, reading material, internet, & the child/teen himself who (as I already said) has his own bechira… So many factors involved.

Of course if we parents do our best, give loads of love & understanding, make our homes a very happy place, are emotionally in tune with kids, provide gentle discipline, have good sholom bayis (this also is not always in parents’ hands), daven, build the kids self esteem up, and we ourselves serve as a good example, then yes, we’re giving our kids a much better chance at turning out right…

Sorry I don’t have ways to prove my ‘myth’ theory. I’m not an official survey taker so I don’t have hard data. But I’ve met loads of people & read a lot on this topic over the last 20 years, & I’m sure of my opinion.

You, & a/o else reading this, can take it or leave it. But even those who completely disagree, would still agree that parents aren’t always the guilty party. Even Barry above (whom Popa agrees with) used the words ‘most of the time’ & not ‘all the time’. So don’t be quick to judge when you see a kid/teen/adult off the derech/mentally ill/behaving badly etc. His/her parents are in enough pain as it is, & maybe they’re the ones not in the ‘most’ category, but in the other few.

There’s plenty of parents who do lots wrong, & their kids turn out fine, or better than fine, & vice versa too.

Look how Rifka Imeinu turned out after the house of Besuel, & Rochel after the house of Lavan. Look how Yishmael came from Avrohom & Eisav came from Yitzchok… (Of course you can find meforshim who put some slight blame on parents even there in various ways, but doesn’t change the big picture). No-one has any guarantees with their kids.

Sorry, going on so long, but another thing I wanted to mention, is, it also depends where one is coming from. If we’re looking as a child at our parents, we need to have one kinds of perspective (as forgiving, understanding & appreciative as we can manage, unless they did things really wrong. We need to understand that there’s more than one way to show love, that they did their best, that we don’t know all the issues they had to grapple with…). If we’re looking at ourselves as parents, then we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard & do our best to improve, by reading, getting advice, assessing things regularly, by working hard on ourselves, etc.

May bringing up kids go easily & well for e/o, but let us not be so proud & smug as to give ourselves all the credit. Yes, we can pat ourselves on the back for trying our best & doing a good job, but know that it’s only hishtadlus. We need to thank Hashem for kids that turn out right.

Sorry such a megilla.

Shmold shmargument. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/different-strokes-for-different-folks

My opinion, b’kitzur:

There are three things that determine how a child turns out: nature, nurture, and bechirah. The first two determine how hard or easy the choices are, but it’s ultimately his or her choice. The parents are a huge part of nurture, so often, OTD can be traced to poor parenting, but it’s still not the only factor.

And popa, there are no reshaim today? Meiheicha teisi?

I’m with Spice of Life on this.

And popa, there are no reshaim today? Meiheicha teisi?

I’ve never met one.

I’ve never met anyone who had stopped being frum where there wasn’t a very obvious reason.

Let’s say there was never someone who went OTD other than where there was an obvious reason (which I don’t accept). That still doesn’t mean that the child isn’t to blame.