get rid of smart phone

It’s a pity I missed the last few hours, it looks like a lot was said. Reading through it, I basically agree with whatever yekke2 said. Although I do just have one query for zahavasdad. You appear to have once again changed tack and , no longer insinuating there’s nothing wrong with the internet, you claim that you not only need constant access that a regular pc wouldn’t provide, but that this access must be truly unfettered. No time restrictions, no whitelist, no blacklist, nothing. And you claim this is crucial to your business. Now, I’m not going to comment on what matters to you mote, your soul or some sales. I’m simply not going to believe you. There is no situation in the world where even the meanest protections are a hinderance. And besides, your supposedly unique position aside, most people can managa without the constant, unfettered access you require. So for most normal people, this is an issue, and a serious one that can be addressed by confronting the problem and educating people.

And besides, your supposedly unique position aside

Ahem – You didn’t read the generalization at the end of his post – “You do not know how many people need to phone for business (which is most people nowadays)”.

Another reason why im an am haaretz. Never got why yiddishkeit allows stuff for parnasah reasons. You’l tell me darkei noam or something but i still dont get it. Anyone know how to work this out? Chol hamoed- great example. Daver haavud? thats okay then, otherwise youre being mevazeh moados and dont have a chelek in olam habah.

Yiddishkeit does not allow stuff for Parnassah reasons at all. I touched upon this before. The point isn’t that we allow ????? if it is a ??? ?????; the point is that if it is a Davar HaAvud, it isn’t a ?????.

No Rav I have heard of allows unfiltered Internet for Parnassah. The point is that people who need it for Parnassah can make arrangements for the minimal amount of Internet necessary, and to customize the filters to accommodate the work. Obviously this will not allow access to the real filth online, and should hopefully be able to block out anything below your standards.

Of course, if no other job is available and your only option is a job which needs access to Shmutz, ask your LOR for advice. (He will probably say ???? ??? ?????, but hey – who am I to pasken?)

“humanely” haha

YK2- there are other examples i dont know of offhand. Shaving during sefirah, wearing titzis out?

yekke2:

I know that there is a point to asking a clear Yes/No question, and that the failure to answer the, by my count, about ten direct questions, and the numerous times they have been referenced, present a failure on their part to hold up their side of the argument, technically admitting defeat. Changing the subject is an admission that one cannot stay topical and still defend their argument. I understand this, which is why I started asking such questions, simplistic though they may be. What I was wondering above is why I bother, seeing as they still act as they have some legitimacy in this debate despite not being deserving of it. Technically after the first question wasn’t answered I should have rested my case.

I think that there are several different issues here.

The first one is having unfiltered internet, with full access to all the shmutz in the world. This is simply and unequivocally assur. The Gedolim and venerated Poskim of our generation (R’ Shteinman, R’ Vozner, R’ Chaim, R’ Nissin Karelitz, R’ Moshe Shternbuch, to name a few) have said so time and time again, and I have yet to hear a single dissenting opinion. (see: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/285798/maran-harav-shteinman-iphone-users-are-pasul-leidus.html, http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/207517/r-kanievsky-on-accepting-eidus-from-an-iphone-user.html)

Secondly, when it comes to something that is assur, saying “I need it for my business” simply will not change anything. Business is not an excuse for any issurim; be they chillul shabbos, dishonesty, or unfiltered internet. Assur is assur. Period.

Then there is a separate issue: Having a smartphone, with properly filtered internet, for business needs. While this may not be ideal, it is indeed often necessary in today’s world. And when it comes to ideals, not issurim, there is much more room to accommodate practical necessities.

First of all, I don’t like that this topic has gone from discussing issues in general to talking about the actions of particular people.

Secondly, even if I would indeed hear a Posek be matir unfiltered internet, there would be preciously few that I would consider to be on par with those of that I previously mentioned. (And of those few, I’m under the impression that many, if not most, of them have gone on record as concurring to the ruling of R’ Vozner, R’ Chaim and R’ Shteinman.) And even this theoretical Posek would indeed be from that select group, it would still be a yochid against a rabbim, and the halacha would obviously follow the rabbim. So I find it very hard to believe that there is any legitimate heter for one to have access to unfiltered internet, for any reason at all.

Several weeks ago, I was at a chasunah where the mesader kiddushin, a rosh yeshiva from Teaneck, asked the eidim if they have unfiltered internet on their phones, in their homes, or by their offices. One of them admitted that he did, and the Rosh Yeshiva did not allow him to be an eid – they had to get somebody else.

MW13:

Whilst I agree with you that this thread should not concern itself with individual’s actions in the way Yekke2 did, he was justified in doing so, seeing as the individual he was responding to had bought their own actions into the frame on their own volition. They had bought up their own case as being an example of perfectly justifiable behaviour, and when it was pointed out that they had refused to properly defend their actions, the same actions they believed were perfectly fine, it is only fair that YK2 could point out this discrepancy in the manner that he did, observing that they have thus far avoided any and all pertinent points short of denying daas Torah.

BS”D:

I know that I’m getting into the game late, but hopefully Hashem will help me in adding something positive to the conversation.

1: I like MW13’s summary of the issue. Filter/Webchaver is a must, and we can go Bidieved (smartphone with gedarim) if needed to be connected 24/6 for work (which is Stam a bad idea, but sometimes needed). And yes, there is room to be Meikel for Hefsed Merubah built into the system (not like you need me to back up Chazal), but you need to have a Rov.

2: The #1 issue is people blaming the internet, finances, shaitels, Tznius, and anything other than themselves for what goes wrong. The famous quote of Rav Yisroel Salanter applies, except that people aren’t big enough to take on Mussar and would rather blame others. Frum Yidden are not willing to be responsible for themselves (and yes, it includes many of the other issues mentioned). Part of being responsible is to have a Rov who knows you well (not running to Rav Chaim K. to see if you need to do Libun on your fork 🙂 and who you can discuss all of these issues with. But yes, finances and internet are huge issues (finances being a very very old one, and internet being a newish one).

3: Girls do not understand the power of the Dark Side. There is such a large potential Nichshol in having anything: A computer/monitor (even without internet!!!), a camera (which can be used to view any type of picture or video, even without internet), or even a telephone (for those in the USA who may remember the old-school concept of 900 numbers). $40 will get an interested bochur a throw-away phone on which they can get anything. This ties into #2, where people have to take responsibility for THEMSELVES (and their children!!) and create appropriate gedarim that work for them. There is no “one size fits all” answer to what is a very large Nisayon of our generation.