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How can I convince a friend to get rid of a smart phone??
Any smart ideas?
Why do you want her to get rid of her smart phone?
Why do you feel that it is your responsibility to make her get rid of her smartphone?
Most importantly, do you realize that the likelihood of your getting your friend to ditch her smart phone for a kosher one is close to zero? Life changes have to come from the person themselves, or they won’t be permanent.
You posted this from…..?
chacha5: A smartphone is no worse than a computer (you can disable filters too). Are you willing to get rid of yours?
Like anything else, there is good and bad in everything. Self control is the key. If you drive and don’t have a smartphone to use Waze, you could be risking your like. Waze is much better than a regular GPS.
Risking your life? Let’s not overdo it. And every timer you see traffic reports on waze, its from another waze user that’s stuck in traffic. So don’t think that wazers ate immune to traffic.
You posted this from…..? Do you assume it wasn’t from a computer?
If you do get rid of it please send it to me. I can always use an extra one.
Thanks!
yayin yashan bkli chadash: Think of it like this. You are driving in Israel without waze and you accidentally turn into a hostile Arab area. Is your life in danger or not?
It actually happened to someone I know and B’H, a decent Arab got him out of there alive…barely!
Letakein Girl: why do assume that its a she?
Why do you feel that it is your responsibility to make her get rid of her smartphone
because the op obviously feels that a smart phone can be dangrous to his/her friends spiritual life. and kol yisroel arevim ze laze
chacha5: A smartphone is no worse than a computer (you can disable filters too). Are you willing to get rid of yours?
a computer is different from a smartphone. a computer can only stay in one place, which might be a public place, while a smartphone can be brought with the person to anywhere he/she wants (e.g. a private place, a place with not-so-good-friends, a place with unfiltered wi-fi). and if the computer is shared, then this persons time on the computer is limited. and a smartphone is much more personal than a pc.
the op could be talking about a young teen (boy), who has a smartphone, maybe against his parents will. im sure we can all agree that in this case, it is not a good thing for the kid to have a smartphone
chacha5:good luck. and if you cant convince your friend to throw it out, try to at least convince your friend to get a filter and reporting service, if your friend doesn’t have one
Barry LS1: I was actually once driving in Israel with a gps (garmin, this was before waze) on the way back from amukah and the gps directed us into a settlement. There was an automatic gate in front, but thankfully, someone was driving in, so we followed behind them and the gate closed behind us. The gps told us to drive around a path, and eventually, we ended up by the same (locked) gate that we started off by. Boruch Hashem it wasn’t Arab, but the secular Israeli kibbutznik we had to ask to open the gate didn’t seem too happy to see us. This same GPS tried to get us to drive down the steps to the Armenian shuk. It was a real Israeli driver. 😉
SJ,
I looked at the OP’s profile page, and noticed that she’d started threads about seminaries. Seems like something only a female would do. 🙂
Your answer to my second question is great, but what about my third?
and I quote
yayin yashan bkli chadash So you see what I mean! I’m curious if those opposing smartphones understand that it is nothing more than a computer? I just never hear those people say both things together.
I understand the filter issues and the desire to limited exposure to negative influences, but just walking in the street exposes you to it.
From my perspective, it’s like the gun issue. Who/what is to be blamed for someone getting shot, the gun or the shooter?
There are good and bad aspects to most things. We can’t shut ourselves off from the world completely.
In reality, what do we have on our smartphones. I have a Siddur, Tehillim, a luach, waze, what’sapp and Arutz 7. Ok, I also have chess and sodoku. So why is this a big deal?
Its a 24/6 computer. People are on them all day and night.
Smartphones are addictive, have whatsapp, Facebook, Twitter, email and other social networking programs at your fingertips 24-6 is worse than a computer.
Barry, while I agree with you somewhat, I really don’t like the comparison between posessing a smartphone and walking out on the street.
When you walk out on the street, do you sometimes have an intense desire to look at pictures and videos that can destroy your neshama? Sure, there are billboards sometimes, and also scantily clad women. But the damage that you cause to your neshama by looking at these things is nowhere near the amount of damage that can be caused by using the dark side of the Internet.
The spiritual danger that is inherent in posessing a smartphone is many times worse than the danger in walking down the street, so the two can not be compared fairly.
Also, yes- smartphones are computers. But anyone with a life does not have 24/7 access to a computer, whereas your smartphone is always with you. By buying a smartphone, you are pretty much signing a contract with your Yetzer hara, allowing him to live with you 24/7, and promising that you will have what I think (little me 🙂 is the most powerful weapon he possesses.
Letakein Girl: That was an aside comment not the crux of my comment. Most of the use of a smartphone is in public, so it is less likely used for smut than someone using their computer in private.
The whole smartphone issue is so overblown and just diverts from far more important issues.
Most of the use of a smartphone is in public, so it is less likely used for smut than someone using their computer in private.
i dont know who your are talking about, but I know that there are plenty of kids who have smartphones and use them in private, all the time, for “shmutz”. maybe if one is a single living by them selves then a computer is as dangerous as a smartphone, although you would still have access in private places that are not at home. but for many other people, especially teens, a portable, always there, private smartphone, is far worse than a in place, perhaps supervised, public computer.
whatever the case, a person should definitely have a filter and reporting service on their device. both of them.
showjoe: Kids are a different issue and I was not referring to them. That’s a parental responsibility to filter it and better yet, not to have internet access on it for kids. Also, to monitor what they do on their home computers.
We always kept our home computer in a very public place, in addition to filtering it.
Keep her busy with chessed and shiurim and davening and positive activities, and after a while she’ll have no use for it.
“We always kept our home computer in a very public place, in addition to filtering it. “
1.Great!
2.that would be why your computer would be better than a smartphone
showjoe: I can’t use my computer for Waze. It’s too big. Also, I’m not speaking for others, but you have to be nuts to go to those sites anyway. For many of us, the smartphone is a necessity.
I have a 100% searchable tanach+Rashi+shas on my smartphone. I use it all the time. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay in yeshiva all day surrounded by sforim.
I have a 100% searchable tanach+Rashi+shas on my smartphone. I use it all the time. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay in yeshiva all day surrounded by sforim.
Not that I’m claiming to have a direct line to G-d, but if this is your entire justification for having a smartphone then I’m sure He’d rather you got rid of it. But if that’s just a side point, and entirely unrelated to your personal reasons, or indeed justifications, for having a smartphone, then kol hakovod for at least using it for a worthy cause.
I have a 100% searchable tanach+Rashi+shas on my smartphone. I use it all the time. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to stay in yeshiva all day surrounded by sforim.
Not that I’m claiming to have a direct line to G-d, but if this is your entire justification for having a smartphone then I’m sure He’d rather you got rid of it. But if that’s just a side point, and entirely unrelated to your personal reasons, or indeed justifications, for having a smartphone, then kol hakovod for at least using it for a worthy cause.
A school Rebbi of mine once called in a boy about his iTouch. The boy showed him his Torah app with Shas, Shulchan Aruch and Tanach. The Rebbi told him that it was like putting a piece of matzah into a dish full of Chometz – not only does the Chometz not become Kosher LePesach, but it actually makes the Matzah chometz too.
yekke2:
I was trying not to be too confrontational, and therefore stopped short of just saying that app was worthless. But I see your point. If this app is your sole justification for owning a smartphone, and I would like to hear how newbee answers this, then it is certainly not a good reason to own one. It is possible that he needs it for business, which I am not condoning but is an entirely different debate. And on other threads, I have seen, and agreed with, many opinions that say that it is difficult to justify. But if he already owns one, and has a valid reason, then should he not put such an app on it?
BarryLS1, newbee: im not accusing anybody, i assume that everyone who has a smartphone has legitimate reason to, knows its dangers, and a legitimate filter (and preferably a reporting program).
but for those who dont understand why a smartphone is dangerous, and why some people dont want others (especially kids) to have one, and why a smartphone is worse than a computer, im here to explain.
“The Rebbi told him that it was like putting a piece of matzah into a dish full of Chometz – not only does the Chometz not become Kosher LePesach, but it actually makes the Matzah chometz too.”
This is nice and all but at the end of the day it is only your rabbis opinion. I need a smart device for work, so yes I would need either a smart phone or tablet anyway. But to say that smart phones are not suitable for most people, especially younger people, and therefore no one should have one, is not pashut in my opinion. Especially if it has a filter.
I’m sorry to put it so bluntly, but I think most Rabbonim would agree that it is poshut. If it would be possible to get by without a portable smart device, they should not keep one, i.e. anybody for whom it is not absolutely necessary to have to access their emails and the like whilst on the move. I think it’s fair to say that most people’s jobs at most require them to have a regular phone, and access to a non-portable device such as a computer. Can it honestly be said for all frum yidden who possess such a device that they could not manage without it, or at least without all the features it offers (such as a phone that can access emails but not video)?
This is an unfortunate issue I have often encountered in the CR, as well as frum society in general. It is not that people aren’t cognizant of the dangers. It is just that they are meikel when it comes to themselves. If people were this lenient when it came to, say, Pesach cleaning, then all it would consist of would be wiping down the kitchen surfaces briefly with a damp cloth. And there is no question as to which is more important. People who would otherwise, rightly, hang on every word their Rav says, feel free to deride Talmidei Chachomim daas torah, and I quote, as “out of touch”, and “when the rabbonim called for the ban, I suspect it was based on what people told them rather than first-hand experience”. This is a ridiculous attitude to take with matters of kedusha, and the worst part is this is prevalent in our community. A bedieved in a matzav of extreme tzoirech has become a lechatchila for many people.
sirvoddmort: If you dont use it for the internet and only certain finance apps, email and torah apps- what is the problem? You are not going to see shmutz.
It’s not what you do use it for, it’s what you could use it for. If you’re saying that all this phone can possibly access is a finance app, emails and this Torah app you speak of (and you have no other option but to have them with you on the move), and all other news (YWN accepted), video, social, and internet apps are barred and cannot be accessed in any circumstances, then you’re right there isn’t any obvious problem. But if your point is that you choose to only use certain apps that do not pose a problem, but the phone can technically access them, then it’s like saying you’re pottur from yichud, many melachos, not eating chometz from tomorrow morning, and virtually all Pesach cleaning, but to name a few. Need I go on?
You could technically use your hands to steal from someone or worse, but it’s not assur to have hands.
what if you use an old smart phone, with no wifi availability. i could not imagine at this point going somewhere and not having tanach and shas literally at my fingertips. have to run, sorry if i dont reply for a while.
Being as the crowd in the CR are people using the internet for recreational purposes, you’re automatically going to get a slightly biased opinion. You’re not getting a real cross section off the frum community.
You could technically use your hands to steal from someone or worse, but it’s not assur to have hands.
Reb Yid, I don’t care if, as per your subtitle, your post was ironic. It’s simply ridiculous. At best, it’s a poor joke, at worst it’s kefirah. I could argue that, according to your logic, there was no earthly reason to do any Pesach cleaning, or keep Shabbos as we know it, but that would be allowing myself to be dragged down to your level. I say this not to demean you in any way, and I am sorry if my language comes across as harsh, and I deliberatley toned it down, but that previous point can only be described as facetious.
Newbee, I think on this matter I have made myself perfectly clear. You are being, I’m sure unintentionally, quite vague about what we are talking about here. I have outlined above that the parameters are simple. If the phone has what we would call ‘internet access’, meaning it is possible to browse online relatively freely (and I mean with a filter, without it is even more obvious), and not just have only one email app and one finance app that work, then having a Torah app too, even if you feel you cannot be separated from it, is not a good reason to possess one. If we are talking about a simply phone that can only access email and finance, and you really need it, then your Torah app is simply a great bonus.
Or to put it this way: A phone with ‘internet access’, is a negative thing to have, and daas torah dictates that one should not possess such a device. Of course, there are a few exceptions, in a case where not having one would have a significant impact on ones livelihood. For the clear parameters, ask your LOR. In those exceptions, I find it hard to think of a single case where the need to browse the internet, access news, social media and video sites is necessary. Technically, for it to be justified for one to possess a smartphone, one must absolutely require one, which doesn’t apply to most people, and even in those few cases where it does, one should only give the phone the ability to access those few apps he needs, for example, email, finance, ebay, and some kosher apps besides, perhaps. So in this minority of cases, then the Torah app is praiseworthy. If the situation does not meet thee guidelines, better to get rid of the phone and the app.
It’s not what you do use it for, it’s what you could use it for.
Maybe the hands comparison was bad, but something like a car would be a better choice
Sure you can drive to the yeshiva, but you can also drive to other places alot worse than whats on the internet. And there is no filter for driving
Barry:
“I’m curious if those opposing smartphones understand that it is nothing more than a computer?”
And do those opposing rifles understand that it is essentially the same as a BB gun? Or do they correctly realize that small technical differences can drastically change the inherent danger of an item?
While a smartphone has most of the same issues as a computer (viewing inappropriate content, wasting time, etc) the fact that it is always with its owner, and that it is far easier to use without anybody seeing what one is up to, make those issues far more potent.
mw13: While I do acknowledge your valid point, but the overriding reason, that I use it far exceeds any issue that I would never use it for.
I do find it funny that a Chareidi guy at an anti-smartphone rally was videotaping it on his smartphone.
Ever since this controversy, I find myself checking what type of phone people are using. I find that more than half of Chareidim have smartphones. People are responsible for their actions. I think that the whole issue is still overblown and that many people aren’t following those trying to stop its use and it increases the chances that their followers won’t listen when they absolutely should.
I heard a comment from a very wise Rov. He said and i’m paraphrasing “pick your fights, otherwise you just cause harm to everyone.”
ZD:
Sorry, but a car isn’t a significantly better comparison. Let me simply ask you one question, rather than do as I have done previously and outline my arguments clearly and at length in the hope of making myself absolutely clear, and for the majority of this to be ignored in favour of one soundbite; Why is there an issur of yichud, if the people involved feel there is no chance of any aveirah occurring?
BarryLS1:
Reading through your previous post, your point basically seems to centre on the argument that since some/many people mightn’t/don’t listen, it is not worth making a stand on. Or to put it another way, since everyone’s anyway doing it, pick your battles and don’t fight it. Would you say the same thing if the issue at hand here was avoidah zorah, or in a less extreme example, chillul shabbos? If it is ossur, then it is ossur, and all efforts should be made to combat it. It’s not a matter of ‘picking your fights’. There is a chiyuv to not stand by. It’s as simple as that.
sirvoddmort: Not the case at all. It was but one of the points. Thew main point is that it keeps us save and away from hostile Arab areas.
I would love to see the anti-smartphone leadership deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s, etc. That, they sweep under the rug and the fact that molestation’s do drive people off the derech doesn’t seem to matter to them, just the phone is the cause of all the world’s ills.
Ever since this controversy, I find myself checking what type of phone people are using. I find that more than half of Chareidim have smartphones.
You sound pretty judgemental there. “Checking what type of phones people are using” means nothing. You have no idea how many of them have filters! Filters which block out Shmutz; Filters which block out unnecessary sites suited for entertainment purposes, or even Filters which totally block Browsers and Apps. I know many people who have smartphones which are totally disabled; the sole purpose of the smartphone is for Whatsapp (which you discuss separately if you think it is a problem, but is definitely not anywhere near the ???? we associate with smartphones) and for the quality of the camera.
Please be ?? ??? ???? when possible.
I would love to see the anti-smartphone leadership deal with real issues…
So the Internet isn’t a real issue? I completely fail to understand how you reach that conclusion. Daas Torah is unequivocal on this point. Unfettered Internet is probably the greatest danger facing Torah Jewry today, due to the various influences that are so readily accessible through it, and you refer to it as minor, or even inconsequential issue? I’m truly sorry to have to say this, but this is a prime example of the lack of respect for daas Torah people apply to this debate. Saying there are other issues should not divert us from the issue at hand. At leat before I thought you were saying this issue was impossible to address properly, which I disagreed with but at least isn’t contrary to what we know about the dangers of the Internet. Now you deride the entire anti-Internet ‘movement’ (or as we call it, daas torah) as focusing on the wrong thing, and at best attempt to diminish, at worst almost completely deny, the dangers of the Internet.
I would love to see the anti-smartphone leadership deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s, etc. That, they sweep under the rug and the fact that molestation’s do drive people off the derech doesn’t seem to matter to them, just the phone is the cause of all the world’s ills.
while it is true that these issues are very important, the internet issue is much more prevalent than any of these other issues. i dont think people realize how many kids are “caught” today.
as sirvoddmort said “Unfettered Internet is probably the greatest danger facing Torah Jewry today”
This whole discussion is ridiculous, because regardless if a smartphone is a problem in theory, it takes a moron to say that it’s not a problem in reality. Ask anyone involved in marriage counseling how much of a role phones play in sholom bayis issues. Look around next time you are in shul during the week and see how many people are using them. Same thing for any event. How about by family time? And this is without discussing what they’re doing. Just look at how addictive it is, even if its for purely innocent things. And the comparison to a car was also rather unintelligent. I think that is self explanatory. However, anything that is said against the internet over here will automatically elicit a defensive rather than rational response, being as every single person here is on the internet (and not for business). If its a choice between you being wrong or the rabbonim being wrong, and you already decided that you’re not listening to them, you may as well call them delusional idiots, to ratify yourself (in your own eyes, at least), why you’re not listening to them. Anyone on drugs says the same about the police and the doctors. You have plenty of company.
The internet is not the biggest issue facing torah judaism today
Its Finances. Sure many will try to hold on as long as they can, but at some point the money does run out and the landlord or the electric company does not care you are doing Hashems work, they want their money (and need it themselves in many cases)
Finances have been historically the #1 issue why people went OTD and will likley remain so
I still have a Kyocera DuraXT flip phone.the smartphone would help me greatly in business,but i am holding the line and not getting a smartphone for now.The Yetzer Hara is not worth it
Unfettered Internet is probably the greatest danger facing Torah Jewry today.
Agreed. Unfiltered Internet, and perhaps Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
I would love to see the anti-smartphone leadership deal with real issues that are harming people, like; domestic abuse, child abuse, molestation’s
… using apostrophes to indicate plurals. 🙂
(Sorry, couldn’t resist).
The Wolf
Finances have been historically the #1 issue why people went OTD and will likely remain so.
Really? The opposing side of the argument seems to simply be to ignore the thrust of the argument and bring up needless side issues and claim they deserve greater attention. Case in point, bringing up abuse, financial issues, drug abuse, and pointing at them whilst saying that these are bigger problems than the internet. Firstly, they’re not. You are, quite simply, wrong. Enough has been said in this thread explaining clearly the problem with the Internet, and I do not need to go over it. But it certainly outstrips financial issues in importance. In today’s world, financial issues are a tiny factor in people going OTD. Secondly, it is possible for there to be more than one issue. Torah Jewry does not have to choose between addressing abuse or the Internet, it can deal with both.
One thing you have definitely never dealt with is the inescapable fact that unfettered (not just unfiltered) Internet use is an enormous issue facing Torah Jewry and all of us must address this. The fact that you have as yet refused to understand this is either down to apathy, ignorance, incapacity or denial. Honestly, I am unsure as to why I keep answering. The vast majority are in agreement, i.e. showjoe, yekke2 (Ahmedinijad? Are we in 2013?), wolfish, n977ll (well done, by the way), yybc, LG, barlev, chacha5, and mw13, whilst two or three posters keep rehashing non-arguments and refuse to properly engage by actually accounting for themselves properly. Maybe now can be an exception, and these points can actually be addressed?
mild edit . . . you’ll thank me one day
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