gerut l'chumra

sam2,

arent they passul eidim (karaites) so how could they have a kosher kiddushim?

DY according to Rav Yosef its not intermarriage, its totally Kosher

Now I dont know what would happen if an Ethiopian decided to become Yeshivish and then wanted to marry someone from Bnei Brak which follows the Psakim of Rav Elyshiv who held they were not jewish. Rav Yosef not only held they were jewish, but was even opposed to geruth L’Chumra for them

Sam2: I am aware that one of the (najor) problems with Ethiopian jews was the case of a divorce. Whereas-as you say- their “kiddushin” would be good, their “gittin” were not in accordance with the halocho and hence, the problem of mamzerim did indeed intrude into this. I do not now how the present day Poskim -chiefly R’Ovadia Yossef- handled that (I will try to look up the teshuvo) but I suspect it does have to do with “mamzer vadai velo mamzer soffek” which (contrary to what you wrote) is indeed the halocho “mid’oraisa” (see Rambam hilchos issurei biah 15-21). The chachomim,however, added soffek mamzer as a “geder bejuchsin”. Possibly, the fsct that we were talking about a “klal” we ended up paskening on a “doraisa” basis.

I am aware that Rav Moshe said they need Gerut L’Chumra. However I dont know when his Psak came out and when Rav Yosefs Psak came out.

The mass emigration from Ethopia did not occur until after Rav Moshe’s death and more research had been done.

DaasYochid: thanks for the sources ! If my memory serves me correctly, in the early days of the alyah of the Ethiopian jews, the israeli rabbanut required “giyur lechumro”, just as R’Moshe zz’l indicates in his teshuvo.Subsequently, with the arrival of the masses and “operation Moses” (1984), the rabbanut accepted that they were full jews. R’Moshe was niftar in 1986-so this teshuvo was probably written much earlier He still calls them “falashas” in the theshuvo-a term the Ethiopian jews were adamantly against and was subsequesntly avoided. In the teshuvo, R’Oshe zz’l also says time and time again that it is up to the rabbonim in israel to decide and he won’t mix in. Also,very importantly- he writes that there is no “cheshas” of mamzeirus, as they did not do kiddushin kehalocho.

sam2

wasnt that the reason for r’ ovadia’s psak, due to the fact that they dont know hilchos d’rabanan

anyways, isnt their a svara “kol d’mikadeish adayta d’rabanan mikadeish (k’das moshe V’YISRAEL) so since they dont agree with rabbanans not a kiddushin?

Everybody seemed quite certain that “aleph” is definitely totally Jewish. However, it seems quite a controversial issue in the Poskim whether a child born from a Jewish mother but a non-Jewish father is actually a Jew.

We pasken ???? ???. The Meforshim dispute whether this means Kosher straight away, or Kosher after Geirus (meaning that he isn’t a mamzer). Tosfos in a few places (See ??????? ??:, ????? ?”?) holds that the child is not Jewish. Rashi in ??????? ?”? seems to take on that the child is not Jewish, as he does in the end of Parshas Emor (See ??? ???? who is ?????.) Maharsha and R’ Akiva Eiger bring contradictions about this. The Nesivos paskened the one needs Geirus Lechumra (See also Teshuvos R’ Yaakov Melisa Siman ??).

R’ Eliezer Gordon, in ?????? ??? ?????? ??’ ? wants to learn that even the ???? ??? ???”? pasken like that.

So it’s not so clear.

Sam2 – You missed that last part of my post, apparently. Yes, we are not normally ???? for shitas in the Rishonim which are ??? ??????. However, the Nesivos and R’ Akiva Eiger paskened like that l’chumra, and R’ Leizer Gordon in his ???? sefer says that this could be ???? ????. We pasken like ??”?, no? Granted, it is certainly not the accepted ???. But clear cut? I don’t think so.

???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????, see also ?”? ??’ ? ?”? ?.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1933&st=&pgnum=331

Sam2 – Your first tayna I understood; you don’t like bringing up random Shittos Yichidaos of Rishonim which we don’t pasken like. I brought you Poskim who seem to hold like that Shitta.

Then you tell me not to talk about it on a public forum. I’m sorry, I don’t understand that. Torah is not optional, nor is it diplomatic. We don’t brush Torah under the carpet because it ‘offends’ anybody. And we don’t hide Torah from those who don’t know it.

yekke2 and ca: Nothing to do with offending people. It’s an important rule in Psak brought down from the Rishonim Shelo L’hotzi La’az. It is Assur to introduce Chumras in the area of Yuchsin. So we don’t present Shittos that go against the Psak outside of the context of learning the Sugyos. The internet is a context where they should never be brought up.

ca: The “offending’ line was in reference to what yekke said.

I directed it at both of you.