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mikehall12382: If the parents later convert, it doesn’t change the child’s status.
Is there not a proscription against being friends with an akum? Is a ger’s blood relatives excluded from that?
Considering that Rav Leff says that a ger is permitted to engage in yichud and touch his/her close relatives, it is also understood that s/he can remain in social contact with them.
what happens if a parent has a child who converts…therefore he is now considered “parentless”
In a certain halachic sense, yes. Hence the rule that a ger is “as a newborn child.”
then later on, the parents convert…are they now deemed parent and child again?
To the best of my knowledge, no.
The Wolf
Master is joseph. As is pacman. Joseph tried to post this ‘psak’ five times as myfriend or helpful about half a year ago. It was shot down every time. No clue why it is even up now. It is pointless, sourceless and classless (much like joseph)
Actually ,there is no such prohibition — to be friends. It is just a general haskofa — in order not to be influenced. When it comes to a Ger, there is more room to be lenient because of avoiding Chilul HaShem, Eiva and being kofui tova.
I’m not sure if there is any purpose in bringing sources against Joseph, but in ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ?”? R’ Moshe Feinstein clearly paskens that there is no ????? ???? if parents and children both converted.
It is absolutely not forbidden.
As for who said it – one of the 6 dayonim of the Badatz of the Edah HaChareidis.
ravshalom:
If you are correctly paraphrasing Rav Moshe, the implication is that Rav Moshe holds it impermissible if the parents did not convert (only the child converted).
Daniel:
What’s not forbidden? Yichud, Friendship, or Contact?
Shlishi, the reasoning in the teshuva actually implies that they would both be permitted, which is how I originally phrased my post. But I rephrased it when I realized that the Teshuva was written specifically in the case I mentioned. No implication was intended for the other case, nor can one be inferred from the teshuva.
Moderator, actually, I think, slishi is also Joseph.
mod- id he joseph or not?
I have known several geirim of different “persuasions” (yeshivishe, chassidish, modern) and there doesn’t seem to be any klal. A lot depends on the attitude of the family. I even know one person who wanted to convert but in the end decided not to because his family became hysterical, and he decided to remain a righteous ben Noach.
In all the cases I know of, the ger/giyores had a halachic and personal guide, a rabbi or rebbetzin, who worked with them to decide what was advisable and permissible in relationships with their family of origin. The bottom line is that halacha must be observed, but at the same time attempting to avoid or minimize conflict, which is hard emotionally on the ger and creates a hillul haShem if there is bitterness.
My own non-Jewish father was buried yesterday, in a service I could not attend because it was on Shabbos and conducted by non-jewish clergy. I loved my father deeply, and I can assure all of you that these issues at times burn deeply — burn as did the memorial candle I lit with my Shabbos candles in his memory. The flame died around 1 pm, during the hour of his burial.
I was with my father the last week of his life as he was lying on his bed dying of Alzheimer’s. I had flown out to be by his side, not so much because of what my Mom ( in her 80’s and also non-Jewish) had said, but because the “still and quiet voice” that spoke within me was insistent. Go. Now. He may not have even recognized me, but I kissed him. And I helped Mom with his care — whatever it took. I did it out of love, and out of a deep knowledge that this was the greatest honor and respect I could give — to escort him in as much dignity and love as possible on the final steps of his journey in this life.
He lived through the following Shabbos (for which I had prayed, and am thankful) and died on Motzei Shabbos.
There are boundaries that could not ultimately be crossed. The choice to cremate his remains was Mom’s. I spoke to her of the Jewish approach, and she considered it deeply before making a different choice. There was no Shiva. I let some of my friends know. Several sent condolences via facebook, a couple via email. One called. One couple brought soup. The rabbi never said a word. Not even yesterday, when I was in Shul, doing my best to pray, while knowing that the father’s remains were being placed in their final resting place that day. Perhaps it is better. Had he suggested that my father, whom Hashem had chosen to raise me, to help instill the values that in the end brought me to Judaism was not truly my father…
But he said nothing. Jews are a compassionate people.
I once thought Truth was black and white, as defined as the letters on the Sefer Torah. No longer. If one only sees the letters, but not the meaning, not the life behind them, not the true goals, then they are like shadows, creating darkness. See them for what they truly are, a connection to the Eternal, a connection to the Source of strength and compassion, of honor and respect, and all that truly sustains us; Then they are white fire on black fire — illumninating our lives.
In matters where compassion and understanding beg us to look deeper, do not cast them to the ground and cover them with shadows. Bring light. The world could use it.
May Hashem comfort you with the mourners of Israel
I am so sorry for your loss. I think you did a beautiful thing by flying out to be with your father before he died. I was able to be with both of my non-Jewish grandmothers before they passed away, and that was more meaningful to me than being at the funeral anyhow. My family understood (or at least didn’t say anything to my face).
I wasn’t yet halachically Jewish when my mother passed away. I was very close to her and she was the most supportive of anyone in the family of my desire to become Jewish. She died suddenly and it was a long time before I could live with the pain of having lost her.
shoshanaz – sorry about the Rabbi’s response, I wish you much strength and only good memories.
shoshanaz -There was nothing wrong with having a relationship and going to see him off. I don’t understand the guilt feeling that you have coming across your post.
“The rabbi never said a word.”
I don’t understand why he should. A lot of Rabbis don’t give emotional support -that’s the job of friends, family, even therapists.
Health,
Emotional support, no. An acknowledgment would have been appreciated deeply.
The rabbi made a choice. I accept that. I do think that if there are any rabbis out there who read this, I would encourage them to at least express a minimal word of sympathy in such situations, that’s all.
It is not “guilt”, but I think the absence of the communal support that is normally part of the Jewish way of mourning. We (and I include myself) don’t really know how to respond outside those boundaries.
In truth, the process has taught me to appreciate more deeply the practices that define Jewish mourning — even though they did not pertain to my loss.
Health, I think it is very much a Rabbi’s job to give emotional support to a member who davens at their shul, when losing a parent; Jewish or Not…..
shoshanaz…sorry for your loss…
Most Geirim today speak of staying in touch with their families. I DO often wonder at that though. I suppose the rabbanim have their modern day reasons for allowing it. Is it possible that the relationships and pressures to “return” that must have been in the olden days aren’t there today? Could is be a Chilul HaShem issue? (those crazy radical Jews wont let me talk to me son/daughter etc. anymore)??
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