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“B. The exact method of how he died wasnt my point.”
Nor mine. And with all it took to give clarity to one sentence fragment of my post, and yet you still add this conclusion when it was never about that, i don’t know how you can think I’m silly to consider responding to be unproductive. I’d love to spend an hour with you and the mrs and chat face to face, i think it would go wrll, but this venue often doesn’t work for us.I define “work” in this context as successfully and productively exchanging ideas or messages to another who then understands and responds and is understood in return
DMB -” If he is laying on the ground with his hands tied behind his back, then definitely.
I’m not sure What this has to do with anything. Please elaborate.”You have No concept of Reality!
Can s/o who is cuffed by a few cops hurt anybody?
Most of Americans, that think the cop is Guilty, have been Spoiled Rotten their Whole Lives.Syag
“Nor mine”
Lol!Shucks just when I though I understood (You did explcitly say ” I am NOT discussing motives, I am commenting on the words YOU, a physician, used as INDICATORS that strangulation was obvious. period.”
I replied The exact method of how he died wasn’t my point.” I e the point I made that you are responding to was not my point. so he didnt die of strangulation that in no iota changes the thrust of my comment.You said you were replying to my saying “used as INDICATORS that strangulation was obvious” *
Nor yours? What t That is literally what you said
I dont think you are reading your posts.“I define “work” in this context as successfully and productively exchanging ideas or messages to another who then understands and responds and is understood in return”
You can define it any way you want. If it doesnt work for you all the best.
* ps I f you get bored I’d love to see where I said that ““Without a single extra word or letter” 🙂
PSA:
There seems to be some confusion going around. I’m not sure where it started, I heard it from a few pwople. Namely that if someone says they can’t breathe the ycan still breathe.
Please Please Please do not take this silly advice to heart. If someone says they can’t breathe call an ambulance, take your knee of their throat, get ready to perform the Heimlich They are probably in deep trouble and even if technically breathing at that moment in time, there is no telling if they will still be breathing 5 seconds later., nor how effective their breath is
See Sean Hannit’yas (!!!) interview with Dr. Bander who performed the autopsy
@ health
Are all the Cops throughout the Country that are marching with the Blacks spoiled Brats? I have yet to seen a single Cop defend the Murderers. The only People defending them no nothing about law enforcement Tactics.
The reason, I believe that frum people are scared of getting involved in the protests is because we are wired to be scared of blacks marching through the street. For example, yesterday “askanim” in Williamsburg warned people to stay far from Bedford Avenue where there was a peaceful march going down the street. Sort of like our strange fear of dogs.
Sean hannity is very upset about he murder that should tell you guys something
“Please Please Please do not take this silly advice to heart”
Thanks. Of course i put it out there as advice to follow in an emergency, not taken out of context at all. And nothing about mentioning a need to reassess the patient, or if it is actually a patient and not someone who MAY be dangerous and just trying to catch you off guard. Nope, it was obvious medical advice needing an immediate disclaimer. Glad you found use for my post.
Millhouse
please stop lying.
“The fact that Chauvin chose this method, which is standard and approved by the Minneapolis Police Department, was not a factor”It was in violation of Minneapolis Police code
5-311
“The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting.”He was no longer actively resisitng. chauivin kept him in the restraint for several minutes after he passed out
“And the protocol for excited delirium, which the cops’ conversation shows they thought was happening”
cops don;t get to think someone is delirious and use that to justify murder. We all so the videos .
chauvin said get in the car. Floyd replies “I will” and instead of letting him get in chauvin keeps his knee there
“ps I f you get bored I’d love to see where I said that ““Without a single extra word or letter””
Oh my gosh!
I asked you to isolate that comment for the sake of getting you to focus on a single point SO THAT I COULD EXPLAIN IT. Not as a method of conversing.
And i already explained that that was why i did it. Can i please move on or are you really getting something out of this mutilation of a conversation?DMB -“Unfortunately you have completely lost me. Are you advocating that the police sit on the necks of everyone who resisted arrest at any point of the arrest until they die of coincidental cardiac arrest?
I sure hope not. Interesting question for you, if instead of a black male it was a Frum yid would you be saying the same things?”You sure have a lot of questions.
Now I’m Not gonna ask how old you are, but what Grade did you finish?
And how many SN’s do you have here?I’ll do you a favor – I’ll answer the first one.
From the Atlantic:
“A 2007 Justice Department survey found that 46 percent of police departments who serve more than 1 million people allow some sort of hold or neck restraint. A closer look at the use-of-force policies of the nation’s six largest police departments reveals variations in how they treat neck restraints…”syag
“Thanks. Of course i put it out there as advice to follow in an emergency”Wasn’t just you. (thats why I separated it from my response to you)
Ive heard it in real life and several posters here posted it. on several different threads.
It is a very silly comment, I can only assume some right wing pundit said it and it spread from there. It is hard to assume several people came to the same bizzare realization independetly.
Regardless it is wrong, misleading and potentially dangerous please be sure to tell people you hear repeating itRight wing pundit, cute.
I heard it in every CPR/first aid class I’ve taken. I will assume the others did too.
In light of all I’ve now heard i will readjust.
P.s. in context of learning how to treat a choking victim.
Ubiq -“It was in violation of Minneapolis Police code
5-311
“The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting.””I don’t know the exact definition in Minn. of Resisting; but in NJ that’s called resisting.
From NJ.com:
“Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed — or as violent as flailing, punching or kicking an officer in an attempt to escape.”syag
“I heard it in every CPR/first aid class I’ve taken”
to clarify It IS true. It is taught to provide a sense of comfort, IE Don’t panic if your choking patient is coughing/talking they are still breathing , you can process the situation, call for help if in over your head etc. . but it isnt meant to teach that they arent in danger.
applying it to a case where a person’s throat is being constricted and he says “I cant breathe” as being “proof” that he is breathing is not what the first aid teachers meant ,
And again , this isnt geared to you, wev’e exhausted that point, I’m not saying thats what you meant.Health
““Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed — or as violent as flailing, punching or kicking an officer in an attempt to escape.””
got it!
so lying face down on the ground with three officers on your back saying I will getting the car, is NOT resisting
And chauvin was in the wrong whe he contiued to use the technique on a subdued suspect.Boy you are really going to get mad at chuavin when you find out that NOT ONLY did he continue to use it after he was subdued, he continued to use it after Floyd was unconcious.
He eve continued for a fulll minute after the EMS arrived.Tell me was Floyd still resisting under NJ definition or any defintion ?
I guess he was “limp” is that what you mean?
Glad we agree.Again, the cops’ conversation shows that they were considering him to be in excited delirium, for which they are supposed to keep him restrained so he doesn’t flail around and hurt himself. And the knee hold was a CONSCIOUS hold. He did not pass out because of the knee hold It was purely to keep him from moving. His shortness of breath had nothing to do with the knee hold, because he was complaining of it (truly or falsely) before it was applied. He died of a heart attack brought on by his health condition and his drug use, perhaps exacerbated by the stress of being arrested and restrained. The exact same thing would have happened had he been restrained in some other fashion.
And he was not some good upstanding citizen entitled to a presumption of innocence and good faith even outside a courtroom. He was someone with form. An armed robber. So he had lost his chezkas kashrus.
Millhouse
“Again, the cops’ conversation shows that they were considering him to be in excited delirium, ”
Again, at best that lowers the charge to manslaughter. Cops can’t just assume things therby abdolve themselves.
“for which they are supposed to keep him restrained so he doesn’t flail around and hurt himself. ”
Hard to hurt yourself when your unconscious.
“And the knee hold was a CONSCIOUS hold.”
Yep read the guidelines posted above.
“He did not pass out because of the knee hold”
Well that’s just chauvins bad luck isn’t it.
And of course i assume you have your own autopsy report to back this up?” His shortness of breath had nothing to do with the knee hold, because he was complaining of it (truly or falsely) before it was applied. ”
Certainly didn’t help.
“He died of a heart attack brought on by his health condition and his drug use, perhaps exacerbated by the stress of being arrested and restrained”Neither autopsy report said that.
. The exact same thing would..
So you’re a Navi now?
Maybe that’s how you made up your own autopsy report?“And he was not some good upstanding citizen ”
Immaterial.
“entitled to a presumption of innocence and good faith ”No presumption watch the video.
r”. So he had lost his chezkas kashrus”
So have you.
Stop making things up
The video is there.
The police code of conduct is there.
The autopsy reports are thereMillhouse
The 2 autopsy reports I am aware of listed the cause of death as
1) “a cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained by law enforcement officers, who had subjected Floyd to subdual and “neck compression” (Hennepin County medical examiner )
2) “mechanical asphyxia” (private medical examiner)” He died of a heart attack brought on by his health condition and his drug use, perhaps exacerbated by the stress of being arrested and restrained. ”
Is this from some other autopsy report?
Ubiq -“And of course i assume you have your own autopsy report to back this up?”
Milhouse is Right! The preliminary Report told the Whole Story.
The Final Report was probably Done on the “So-called advice” From the State Prosecutor.
Btw, do you Know – Who is the State Prosecutor?!?If you’re trying to control a cat who wants to bite and scratch you, an easy trick is to wrap it in a large towel or blanket.
I wonder why the police don’t carry big nets they could throw over a person and then secure. That seems as if would be safer for the police, and the person being detained as well.
Health
Health
“Btw, do you Know – Who is the State Prosecutor?!?”Yes
“The preliminary Report told the Whole Story.”
why becasue thats what you want to believe?
Do you always accept preliminary results over final ones especially when they seem far fetched?So just so I have this straight. you believe that Floyd just happened to have a “heart attack” while poor chauvin had his knee there. and that there was no reason for Chauvin to remove his knee even after Floyd was unconscious. and the final ME’s autopsy and the private autopsy are all lying, but you can sense the real truth is that right?
Health,
Floyd clearly goes limp and unresponsive towards the end of the video. A renowned health expert such as yourself should have been able to see that clearly. Unconscious people are generally not capable of resisting and the cop still kept his knee on his neck.The very very first official autopsy, in its original report before they rewrote it, said he died due to his prior health conditions — and NOT because of what the officer did to him.
“The very very first official autopsy, in its original report before they rewrote it, said he died due to his prior health conditions — and NOT because of what the officer did to him.”
a. thats not what it said
b. It was preliminary
c. Ok so I understand why some assumed their initial mistaken assumption. now that the final report is available and a second report as well, are they perhaps mistaken?
Particularly when you must consider what a remarkable unfortunate coincidence it was that Floyd just happened to die from his prior health conditions, not because of what the officer did, while he just happened to be holding his knee to his neck.
d. Even if unrelated and just a extremely unfortunate coincidence, , why didnt he remove his knee and check for a pulse,? perform CPR? BEST case the cop was extremely negligent“Also, he didn’t gasp for air, and any med student knows that someone who tells you they can’t breathe, can”
SYAG: “Gasping for air” does not necessarily mean that the person can not breath at all.
Ubiq -“why becasue thats what you want to believe?”
No, because that’s the Truth!
“The Final Report was probably Done on the “So-called advice” From the State Prosecutor.”
The reason I wrote that is because it’s a Lie.“Ok so I understand why some assumed their initial mistaken assumption. now that the final report is available and a second report as well, are they perhaps mistaken?”
No; their just LYING!
“d. Even if unrelated and just a extremely unfortunate coincidence, , why didnt he remove his knee and check for a pulse,? perform CPR? BEST case the cop was extremely negligent”
That’s Not their Protocol!
He followed the Protocol.
The protocol States in many PD’S DEPT. – just call EMS. And that’s what they did.“5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)
Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure.”“He followed the Protocol.
The protocol States in many PD’S DEPT. – just call EMS. And that’s what they did.”I’m willing to bet AHA certification is a requirement to be a cop in Minneapolis. But assuming you are correct and it isn’t, is keeping your knee on an unconscious/dead man part of protocol?
There was an off duty firefighter on scene who identified her self, why not get up and let her assess Mr. Floyd? The guy was in handcuffs and unconscious he was no longer a threat to anyone (if he ever was at all)Health
“No, because that’s the Truth!”
what makes you say that? you stick in “The Final Report was probably Done…” Why do you say that?
“”No; their just LYING! ”
why do you say that? do you have some inside information
you are making lots of assertions do you have anythign to back it upOf course the claims you try to back up you get wrong too…
“He followed the Protocol.”The protocol is to continue to hold unconscious individuals in a choking restraint? and not to check for a pulse?
citation please. I don’t believe you“5-311…”
thank you I supplied that to you alreadyWas he going for a conscious neck restraint? If so it is to be used on a subject ” who is actively resisting”
So not Floyd at that point.If you say it was an unconcious neck restraint that is to be used “On a subject who is exhibiting active aggression, or; For life saving purposes, or; On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective”
Obviosuly not in floyd’s case
Baruch Hashem there is still a sense of justice in this country and the officers who aided the murder have been charged as well. Tou looks pretty guilty too, (probably not coincidentally both of these mmany complaints filed against them for excessive force in the past you like bringing up Floy’ds past curiously you don’t bring up theirs) ) had prior the others its hard to see wha t they saw from their vantage point.
All deserve their day in court though Chauvin’s guilt is clear and as you point out NOT in
Lower: “How did the video of George Floyd’s death not bother you? how do you know it doesnt bother me?”
Well, now that you’ve seen Health’s and Joseph’s comment, You have probably realized that there are a considerable number of yidden who DONT feel bad.
Dear Health,
You asked what is the Torah law about an intruder. You got a straight answer and walked away from it. What is the overall basis for your point? Are you claiming it is impossible that Floyd was murdered by the Officer?bk613 -“keeping your knee on an unconscious/dead man part of protocol?”
I watched the two videos – did you?
There were a total of 6 cops, but I’m Not sure at the time he was on the ground detained they were all there.
There were also 3 people in that car, at the beginning. There was also bystanders.
The last minute on the video – it was obvious Floyd was unconscious.
Chauvin was not looking at Floyd, at that minute. Perhaps he was looking at the two others from the car, which were not detained? Maybe he was looking at the bystanders? This was a cop doing a good job.Interjection : “I don’t know a single person who isn’t horrified by what happened to Floyd.”
Well, now that you’ve visited this thread, you probably can’t say that anymore.
• He was in handcuffs at the time of the murder.
• He already had 2 officer sitting on him
• There were multiple bystanders telling the officers that he was unresponsive.
• Floyd said multiple times “Help I Can’t Breathe”
All these factors combined make the story all the more frightening. Please note that Chauvin was the subject of 18 complaints prior to this story.
I think the man who dismissed all those complaints should also be fired.Ubiq -“On a subject who is exhibiting active resistance in order to gain control of the subject; and if lesser attempts at control have been or would likely be ineffective”
Yes, he was actively Resisting.
It’s obvious you didn’t Watch both videos. You make it seem that when they wanted to put him in the patrol car, he said – “Yes sir” – and went in calmly & sat down.““Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed”
This is the Legal definition, and he was doing much Worse than That!“Yes, he was actively Resisting.
It’s obvious you didn’t Watch both videos”Lol try to keep up. (there are more than 2 at this point, currently there are more than 5. the NYT did an excellent job piecing them all together so the sequence of events are pretty clear. Please watch it it is 8 minutes long.
“The last minute on the video – it was obvious Floyd was unconscious.”
please watch the video he was unconscious at least 2-3 minutes. You claim to be in “health” surely you can recognize lack of consciousness That was BEFORE the ambulance arrived
He was unconscious. Unconscious people cant resist, by definition.
did you watch the whole thing? He was held down by the murderer for several minutes after he was unconscious. He was even held down for a full minute after the EMS arrived“““Resisting” can be as simple as going limp, holding onto a pole or just saying “no” to being handcuffed””
sure can.
Can’t see what was going on inside the police car. for arguments saek, lets grant he was actively resitting.That in NO WAY justifies compressing his airway AFTER he is no longer resisting, let alone unconscious.
“Chauvin was not looking at Floyd,”
He was, and bystanders pointed out that Flod was unconscious. He didnt even let up once EMS arrived! cmon are we talkign baout the same event? Chauvin had 18 prior complaints, your description isnt about this one. Maybe you confused them?DMB -“And for the ten minutes after that? And when his pulse was being checked? And when he said I’ll get in the car? You do realize why they were arresting him, right? Because he paid with a counterfeit 20, we don’t even know that he knew it was a fake.”
It’s obvious that you didn’t watch the video, because your questions make No Sense.
“Does everyone who committed a crime deserve to die 12 years later after they already served the time?”
LOL. That’s a very childish question. It’s probably because you didn’t see the Whole video!
Ubiq -“That in NO WAY justifies compressing his airway AFTER he is no longer resisting, let alone unconscious.”
All I saw was his eyes were closed. Maybe at the last second it looked like he was limp.
Most cops don’t practice EMS, the protocols just state call EMS.
In your haste to find him Guilty, like the Mobs, you twist the TRUTH!“All I saw was his eyes were closed. Maybe at the last second it looked like he was limp.”
Watch it again.
USe your extensive health training
The NYT has an excellent video putting together the whole event. entitled “8 minutes and 46 seconds”
At 8:25 Floyd appears to go unconscious (“All I saw was his eyes were closed. ” was he taking a nap? Even so STILL should remove his knee, napping suspects can’t resist, was he meditating? )
he keeps his knee there for nearly another 3 minutes.simple question: Was Floyd resisting after 8:25 PM?
Also when Cahuvin said:
Get in the car. and Floyd said “I will” Cahivin sayds “get in the car” Floyd says “I can’t move” was he still resisting then? (this was obviously before the above)I think I have the answer to the OP
“How is it possible that many yidden have almost no sympathetic feelings to George Floyd?”
doesn’t seem to know what occurred. He describes floyd resisting even on the ground.
Millhouse didn’t see the autopsy report. He mistakenly thinks it says Floyd died of “a heart attack”So there you go. nobody who has the facts doesn’t acknowledge Chauvin’s guilt (at least to some extent , see Joseph)
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