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I recently read about a Canadian biotech company (AquaBounty) that genetically modified salmon in order to get them to grow faster using DNA from a non-kosher fish called the Ocean pout (the CRC and other kosher fish lists list it as non-kosher). I was wondering if anyone has heard anything, or can provide mareh mikomos, as to whether the implanted Ocean pout DNA makes the salmon non-kosher. Basically, the shaila would be whether merely having the simanim (fins and scales) is what makes a fish kosher, or are the simanim an identifying mark of kosher species, in which case one can argue that the GMO salmon no longer fully belongs to that species and is therefore not kosher. (I’m wondering whether one can say that, as random mutations occur all of the time in nature, kosher species could be experiencing slight genetic changes all the time and they still remain kosher and this would be no different. Or perhaps those changes wouldn’t affect the kosher status of an animal as the mutated gene originated in a kosher animal. Food for thought). The salmon has preliminary FDA approval so this is not far off from being a relevant shaila.
Finally – a thread we can all really sink our teeth into!
So here is my question: Do fish ever reproduce on their own with other types of fish, i.e can a flounder spawn with a non-kosher species of fish, in the ocean? If so, how would we ever know what DNA was in the fish, if the fins and scales were present? Hashem said fins and scales determine the kashrus of the fish, so it would SEEM that if those are both present, the fish appears to be kosher. If Hashem had just named kosher fish in the Torah, without defining the simanim, it would be a different issue. I wonder what the rabbanim say.
Kosher fish and non-kosher fish are not genetically similar enough to hybridize naturally.
Kind of like what oomis said – Does the resultant salmon have fins and scales? The torah gave us that to tell us whether a fish is kosher or not. That’s all we need.
For a fish, the answer as to whether one can eat the fish is based on the simanim (my guess is that they would be unaffected). The same would also hold for mammals. But then there is the issue of whether you a tradition of eating the animal, beyond looking at simanim.
However for both plants and animals, there is the issue of whether one is allowed to breed it yourself, in addition to the question of using it. For example we are prohibited from creating mules but not from owning and using them. If the GMO involves cross breeding different species, then there are some interesting halachic question that will be answered when the practice becomes more common (probably in Eretz Yisrael, since few Jews elsewhere are into farming, and mixing two species is an issue for farmers (American Jews are more into eating kosher animals than raising them).
inquiring mind: Just to note, the offspring of a cross-breed is not always sterile. There have been Tigons who had their own offspring. You can look it up on Wikipedia for details, on the Tigon page.
inquiring mind- yes. It’s not like a dish with nonkosher ingredients. It’s a fish, which according to the torah needs fins and scales to be kosher.
Inquiring mind. – that’s a great question, and the whole point. Hashem told us what fish need to have in order to be classified as kosher. He did not say, “But ONLY if they were not genetically manipulated.” Do you think Hashem did not foresee this? That said, I am still curious as to what Daas Torah says.
Everything we know today, is supposed to be in the Gemarah. Does it deal with this at all? What about the DNA of two kosher animals being combined, i.e., deer with gazelle? We eat BEEFALO, don’t we ( well, I never have)?
It depends on how you view genetics. Is the fish a new fish or is it a composite of its “parents”? If it’s a new animal, so all it needs are fins and scales. If it’s considered a product of what created it, then the Treif fish is a Davar HaMa’amid and it would be Assur.
What if I introduce plant DNA?
I wonder what everyone thinks of www dot benpekuahmeats dot com
Apy, my first question would be why they that an individual as Rav Hamachshir rather than a known organization.
“The ability to reproduce together and produce fertile offspring is actually what defines animals as belonging to the same species.”
That actually is not true. For example, domestic cats have interbred and produced fully fertile offspring with other cat species not even from the same genus that don’t look much like domestic cats such as the Asian Leopard Cat that has very different markings, or the Serval which is twice the size of a domestic cat and looks even less like one. Similarly, polar bears and grizzly bears have interbred and produced fertile offspring. The definition of “species” is somewhat arbitrary and cannot be appled to halachic questions.
” seemed to think that this was indeed a serious shaila:”
If it has fins and scales I cannot understand why it would be a shilah at all.
“But then there is the issue of whether you a tradition of eating the animal”
I have eaten both turkey and American bison and I guarantee you that there was no tradition of Jews eating either as they are native only to the Americas.
Charliehall
Your “rebuttal” does not change neither one whit nor one iota the truthfulness of the statement you challenged.
Indeed there IS an issue of mesorah in poskining shailas of kashrus. The fact that turkey and bison have been poskined ( by most) to be mutar doesn’t change the correct fact that mesorah was a factor that was considered in arriving at the psak.
The fact that turkey and bison have been poskined ( by most) to be mutar doesn’t change the correct fact that mesorah was a factor that was considered in arriving at the psak.
I curious to know how a you could have a mesorah for an animal that you never knew existed.
The Wolf
I curious to know how a you could have a mesorah for an animal that you never knew existed.
The turkey is a famous question. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
My favorite answer is that it was discovered and decided kosher according to the simanim shortly before the minhag began to only use mesorah on birds.
The bison is also a famous question. My favorite answer is we hold you don’t need a mesorah on beheimos. Alternatively its the same animal as a cow.
My favorite answer is that it was discovered and decided kosher according to the simanim shortly before the minhag began to only use mesorah on birds.
That’s fine… but then it’s not a matter of being a mesorah on the bird, it’s a matter of the bird having a certain set of properties (just as with a mammal or fish) and any new bird we find with that same set of properties would also be kosher, even if there was no mesorah for it.
The Wolf
That’s fine… but then it’s not a matter of being a mesorah on the bird, it’s a matter of the bird having a certain set of properties (just as with a mammal or fish) and any new bird we find with that same set of properties would also be kosher, even if there was no mesorah for it.
Well, actually, the current minhag of ashkenazim according to the rema is to require a mesorah on birds. So no, even if we found another bird with the precise same set of properties (simanim, which are listed in the shulchan aruch), we could not eat it.
Well, actually, the current minhag of ashkenazim according to the rema is to require a mesorah on birds. So no, even if we found another bird with the precise same set of properties (simanim, which are listed in the shulchan aruch), we could not eat it.
OK, so then for Ashkenazim, we’re back to the turkey question and your previous favorite answer doesn’t really help then. So, again, how can you have a mesorah about something that you never knew existed?
The Wolf
Wolf. Duh
Indeed you can’t have a mesorah in such a situation. The fact that there happens to be no mesorah is a passive factor militating toward not mutaring. A situation where there COULD have been a mesorah and there is not is a stronger and active factor towards the side of not assuring.
I meant, at the end, towards the side of assuring.
In any case the question “Is there a mesorah or is there not a mesorah” is integral. Within that question various parameters have to be evaluated such as why there isn’t a mesorah.
Please say you understand now.
OK, so then for Ashkenazim, we’re back to the turkey question and your previous favorite answer doesn’t really help then.
We don’t retroactively asser it.
I meant, at the end, towards the side of assuring.
In any case the question “Is there a mesorah or is there not a mesorah” is integral. Within that question various parameters have to be evaluated such as why there isn’t a mesorah.
Please say you understand now.
Actually… I don’t.
The Wolf
Bison are not a shailoh as they had them in Europe and we ate them. The problem is they are hard to domesticate, whereas Aurochs were tamed into our type of easy to raise cattle.
Turkeys were more of an issue but the tame domestic turkeys are so similar to chickens that they decided to treat them similarly, though the wild ones were usually regarded as dubious.
I question the wisdom of asserting that two critters that can breed are of different species just because they look different. If you hold that way you would conclude the humans include multiple different species (well some people held that way, but the Allies hung a lot of them 70 years ago). Also, we have mesorah that humans are all one species, which suggests that physical appearance isn’t a factor in deciding what a species is. Bison and Cattle produce fertile offspring, whereas horses and donkeys don’t (which has halachic signficance).
“it’s not the reason that it’s kosher”
The Torah explicitly says that it is. Twice.
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” the current minhag of ashkenazim according to the rema is to require a mesorah on birds”
The Rema was alive when Jews first started eating turkey.
The Rema was alive when Jews first started eating turkey.
I like turkey.
“it’s not the reason that it’s kosher”
The Torah explicitly says that it is. Twice.
??? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????? ??? ????????? ????????????? ????????? ??????????? ????????????? ????? ?????????:
??? ??? ????????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?????? ??? ????????? ????????????? ?????????:
So if I take fins and scales and implant them on a treifa fish, does that make it kosher?
So if I take fins and scales and implant them on a treifa fish, does that make it kosher?
If you put lipstick on a fish, it’s still smells.
Try deodorant.
If you put lipstick on a fish, it’s still smells.
But it talks even more than it used to.
All this reminds me of a Harry Turtledove short story that I read called “The R-strain.” In it, scientists genetically engineer a pig that is a ruminant, and the question then arises — “is it kosher?”
The Wolf
Wolf
the way I see it turkey does have a mesora. My Father, Grand father and Great grand father were all God-fearing Jews and ate Turkey. I and most of those I know do in fact have a mesora allowing Turkey.
As to how my Great great great (insert as many as needed) Grandfather ate turkey without a mesora, well that is a very interesting historical question that doesn’t have much practical application.
the way I see it turkey does have a mesora. My Father, Grand father and Great grand father were all God-fearing Jews and ate Turkey. I and most of those I know do in fact have a mesora allowing Turkey.
As to how my Great great great (insert as many as needed) Grandfather ate turkey without a mesora, well that is a very interesting historical question that doesn’t have much practical application.
So, in essence, once something has lasted long enough (subject to debate, but, just to pick a number, let’s say 100 years), then it has de facto mesorah status, even if, in fact, there may be no actual mesorah on the matter beyond then?
The Wolf
Wolf
Judaism isnt a dead historical religion it is a living one based on mesora. We do what our parents did and they did what theirs did etc. OBviously given thousands of year there is some change along the way and I dont mean this facetiously but I do find it interesting to study when/why/ how things left or joined our religion (for example, when/why did metzora , Para Aduma, techeiles mong other mitzvos (none of which are (directly) related to the beis hamikdash disappear, or tracing the history of Simchas Torah a yom tov that didnt exist during the time of Chazal and it in its present form didnt exist until mid-late Achronim)
We dont have to look for the mesora of the mesora. Assuming a person grew up in a home/community that was yorei shomayim and shomer Torah umitzvos their is no harm in following their footsteps, and there may in fact be harm in looking into all their actions to determine if they were “correct”
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