- This topic has 53 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Is it true that there are 7 levels of Gehenim, and the top most sinful of people are tortured?
In a shuir that I partially listened to, and partially heard about from someone else, the rabbi said that this whole “cleansing of the soul” idea of Gehenim is a total fabrication. The reality is that Gehenim is full of pain and punishment.
Eeeks!
It’s brought down in many places, midrashim, zohar, Heichalos. The Ramban in Shaar Hagmul discusses it more in length, but obviously we’re not talking about any physical pain or turture, since your body is laying in the ground and doesnt feel any pain, it’s torture to the persons soul, which if anything is much worse but it’s hard for the human mind to grasp the severity of this “Spiritual Torture”, being that we have never felt spiritual pain and only comprehend what we have in our world and thats only physical pain…
ראשית חכמה, שער היראה פרק יג ‘ מסכת גיהנם.
Plenty to read with many details.I don’t understand your post. If only the top most sinful people are tortured then why is Gehinnim full of pain and punishment? It should only be partly full of pain and punishment if it’s only in the top tie?
And why is cleansing of the soul in gehenim a fabrication? I would assume, without basing my thoughts/feelings on sources but what on what I’ve been taught, that punishment in gehenim is individual. Some people need cleansing of sin and are afterwards get into gan Eden while some mass murderers like Hitler y”s and Stalin y”s are there forever.
What do you do that the neshomo is not responsible because it needs the guf to do the aveira, so they get punished together?
Because of the above question we can conclude that the gehenim is not always a punishment but a cleansing process.
Not the Chabad way of looking at things
Mushky, What is the Chabad way of looking at things?
Laskern, I would assume, that for some neshomos it’s a cleansing process and for mass murderers it’s an everlasting punishment. I don’t think Hitler y”s and those responsible the Crusades or Inquisition can ever be cleansed. Also if I remember correctly, people who b’davka cause others to sin can never be cleansed of their sins.
Philosopher, what you say is correct, for the wicked is יורדים ואין עולים, they are thrown in and not taken out, but for others, it is a temporary cleansihg process.
For up to 11 months
Raboysai, what in the world are you talking about? If you want to view Gehenom as a cleansing process, it is not like taking a shower! It is full of tremendous pain. And the reason for that is that Gehenom is always a punishment. Just it is that better people get punished and then ascend to receive their reward. I know nowadays people don’t like to hear about punishment, but the truth must be said.
mdd1, Is the guf also punished for doing the aveira?
Really now, I thought cleansing in gehenim means taking a shower! Boy was I mistaken!
Laskern, yes – hibut ha’kever.
Philosopher, from the question posed at the beginning, one may conclude that some people have misconceptions about it.Philosopher the Chabad way of looking at things is that it is a cleansing process done out of Hashems great love for us. It is painful and experienced as a punishment, but it’s a means to get cleansed to enter gan Eden
mdd1, In EY there is no chibut hakever, so he could commit great aveirus in EY and only the neshomo will suffer disagreeing with the gemora that it with the guf are punished together.
Congrats CS on your name change
CS, we all believe Hashem created everything for our good so going through Gehenim as a purification for our souls must be good for us as well. Although I hope to do teshuva so I wouldn’t end up in Gehenim at all…
Ok, perhaps purification is a better descriptive word than cleansing.
The Idea that gehenom is “Hot” comes from Milton and christianity
Please clarify something for me. I was under the impression, possibly mistaken, that gehinnom is for Jewish neshomas. The Gan Eden that Yidden go to is different than where the non-Jews go. The necessity to purify the neshoma of a non-Jew, particularly one who did horrible things to the Jews, like Hitler, ym”sh, is totally not clear to me. He is not going to Gan Eden or anywhere close to that, so where does he go?
It says the gehenom is 60 times as hot as our fire.
Nechama, non-Jews go to Gan Eden too. (Non-Jews can be tzaddikim too, Adam and Noach for example were tzaddikim.) The reshuim whose souls cannot be purified go to to the shaul tachtes, the netherworld.
Non-Jews like Hitler remain in gehenim forever. He is still burning a horrendous hell every split second over and over again.
CS, if it is done out of great love, why cannot the painful aspect be skipped?
Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky brought an idea from Rav Simcha Zisel of Kelm who said that there is a machlokes rishonim between the Rambam and the Ramban concerning what is geheniom. The Rambam said like this and the Ramban said like this. However ,we have no understanding of both of their words,but there is a tzad hashava shbenheim – es iz nisht gut( that it is not good).
Yeah, let’s all chime in on what gehenim really is, cuz we really know… HAHAHAHA
A) We don’t know.
B) Stop believing every little thing you hear in a random shiur.CA thank you
Philosopher: great so we’re in agreement. I also hope not to end up there.
Mdd1: because when you really love your child you will discipline them as necessary out of your great love. Or to use the mashal, you clean your child’s filthy diaper even though they kick and scream because you love them. If you didn’t love them so much you’d let them sit in it. Similarly Hashem cleans us up from the aveira mess we made so that we can disassociate from the bad and just be left with the good you accomplished forever.
Litebrite you mentioned losing weight which reminds me of a good mashal I heard on the topic of gehennom: people do workouts in the gym which are difficult but rewarding. However the same gym routine can be experienced as torture if it was forced by gunpoint. What’s the difference? By the former you know what you are doing, the purpose it serves and how long it will take. By the latter you don’t know the purpose, or it is done just to cause pain, and you don’t know when it will be over. So too gehennom is experienced as a punishment because you don’t see the meaning behind it but in reality it is a cleansing process for the neshama.
The mishna says the best of the doctors belong in the gehinom because they don’t ask advice. They say as a joke that we need good doctors for the gehinom.
CS, we say on Yom Kippur viduy, we are full of sin and You are full of mercy. Hashem is like the mother, who cleans the baby from the filthy diaper, purifying us from sin.
CS, you compare disciplining and cleaning with Gehenom? Are you serious? Gehenom is terribly, terribly painful. And it is so, because it is a punishment. Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha’SHem do it painlessly— nobody is stopping Him.
“Again, if it is done out of pure love, let Ha’SHem do it painlessly— nobody is stopping Him.”
what are you trying to say here? Are you arguing that it is for a purpose, or are you arguing that it is out of love?
I don’t know what the gemara says about gihenom so I won’t start voicing opinions, but in regard to something being both out of love and horribly painful, that is not a stira. You say nobody is stopping Him. Exactly. Since this is the way Hashem chose to make the process, this is what is in our best interest.
Please explain what you are saying, I would like to understand your point.
My point is that administering justice is a purpose also. Ha’SHem has a hanhogah of Judgement also, not only of Kindness. He can set whatever rules he wants. If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!
P.S.: and those who burn forever, according to you, what is the purpose and where is the love?The Ramban in his introduction to Iyov tell us that one moment in Gehinom is more painful than all the tzoros of Iyov (quoted by the Chafetz Chaim in one of his seforim).
R’ Levy Yitzchak of berditzev is purported to have said that he’s not afraid of Gehinom because if if it’s rotzon Hashem for him to be there then there’s no better Gan Eden he could experience than fulfilling Hashem’s rotzon.
Haimy, now we can understand the brocho of the women שעשני כרצונו with there existence to serve their husband they fullfil the will of Hashem.
…and you liken that to gihenom?
🙂
A woman being with an abusive husband is gehenom.
laskern, if that is what the bracha means, please explain why women have no obligation to marry. If women’s existence is to serve their husbands it would be a woman’s obligation to marry, not her choice. Also please explain why unmarried women, widowed, divorced and spinsters say this bracha as well.
laskern, I’ll answer for you, a woman is a giver, that is the purpose of womens existence. Whether it’s for one’s husband, children or for others. That is different than women being here to serve only their husbands.
Mdd,
Are you saying that Hashem doesn’t “love” all his creations?
“If it is all love, love and love, let the cleansing be completely painless!“
So if you love someone you wouldn’t hurt them even if they would survive? (Like a doctor)
Good שבת everybody
Coffee addict, no, He does not. He doesn’t love Hitler. He doesn’t love Yerovam ben Navat. He hates reshoim.
Again, Gehenom is not just hurting somebody — it it tremendous suffering. Plus, He established all the rules. Why did not He establish just cleansing people without inflicting pain on them?mdd1, why do people go through trials and suffering in this life too? Maybe Hashem should’ve made a pain-free existence for all living creatures? We can grow from suffering and become better people, that’s why. Having a pain-free existence means would mean that we would stay stagnent and never grow spiritually. Same in the spiritual dimension, the neshoma goes through Gehenim to become a stronger and better spiritual being to be able to enter Gan Eden.
… Actually that’s my guess about Gehenim. It is probably only part of the real reason ( reality can have many aspects or truths to it, not only one) or not the real reason at all. Only Hashem has all the answers to the mysteries of creations.
Mdd1,
מעשי ידי טבעים בים ואתם אומרים שירה?
The מצרים were bad people
Disclaimer:
Hashem doesn’t have “feelings” feelings are only for those that are bound by time (which Hashem isn’t) when we talk about feelings it’s only in the context of how we understand Hashem
coffee adict, the Sefer Hachinuch says that whoever prays to Hashem, have mercy on me like you have mercy on the bird, we quite him down because he makes Hashem’s commandments humanly with feelings. If this was the case, shechita would not be allowed.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.