- This topic has 25 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What do you think Gan Eden is?
Lhavdil elef havdalos, how you envision gehenom r’l is?
Gehinom is realizing the damage caused by your aveiros (in terms of your neshama’s kesher to Hashem as well as the damage caused to all of the oilamos through your aveiros).
Gan Eden is realizing the greatness of what you accomplished with your Mitzvos and the Light and Ruchnius that was brought to the world through your Mitzvos.
Of course, in this world we have no idea what that means and it doesn’t mean what we think it means, because we have no way of conceiving of it.
One important thing to realize though is that even though we want to try to avoid going to gehenom, if chas veshalom, lo aleinu, anyone has to go, gehenom is also for his good. Everything Hashem does to us is for our good, even gehenom, since it is for the purpose of cleansing our Neshamos so they can go to Gan Eden and have a kesher with Hashem.
Gan Eden the ultimate closeness to Hashem
Gehennom the opposite
If a person on this world becomes very close to Hashem by observing, learning tora and good deeds can he have a (feel) a spark of Gan Eden by feeling ultimate close to Hashem? Is it a spark of the same feeling?
So according to this “realization of your relationship with Hashem”, would you say that you receive reward/punishment relative to each individual mitzvah/aveirah, or is there a specific point on the scale which is your relationship with Hashem (mitzvos push you up the scale, aveiros push you down), and their is no “itemized” accounting?
I would refine slightly the defintion – it is experiencing the reality of your relationship with HKB”H without any Hester, but you feel it relative to what your relationship could have potentially been.
As far as I know you don’t mix and match. For youe sins do tziva and for your mitzvas you get your reward.
B.B. Can you explain what you mean could have potentially been?
Joe,
Are you saying Hashem made evil nishamos
Every neshoma wants to go back to its source and is pained when it cant
Pirkei Avos says one hour in olam haba is more geshmak than all the pleasures of olam hazeh. presumably an hour in gehenom is more painful than all the tzaros of olam hazeh. Note though, that there is no physicality in that world (berachos 17a), so none of the punishments or rewards will be anything we can fully understand. Perhaps it’ll be an “awareness,” like certain posters are claiming.
The Ramban at the end of Shar Hagamul describes gehenom/gan eden.
No mention of mothers in law.
(It might be ohr hachaim or rav dessler)I learned that gehinom is seeing what you could have become had u made the right choices…..but of course i also learned that if your elbows or knees show then they will be burning in a boiling pot in gehinom..i choose to believe in the not so graphic interpretation…
I have a question maybe I should make another thread but im not sure if there’s existing and i don’t have patience
It says in pirkei uvos “kul yisrael Trish luhem Chelek liolam haba” and that’s where the sentence ends.and then there are so many pesukim like someone who is machatee es hurabim or someone who embarasses another doesn’t have a chelek liolam habah….if it says kul…..it means without exception no? And also is olam habah like moshiavh? Or gan Eden?
“kol yisrael” is the first line of the first mishnah in perek cheilek of sanhedrin. look at the next line, where the mishnah immediately gives a whole bunch of exceptions to that rule. the rambam adds additional exceptions hil. teshuvah perek 3.
bigben2: “So according to this “realization of your relationship with Hashem”, would you say that you receive reward/punishment relative to each individual mitzvah/aveirah, or is there a specific point on the scale which is your relationship with Hashem (mitzvos push you up the scale, aveiros push you down), and their is no “itemized” accounting?’
You get rewarded for each Mitzvah and punished for each aveira, regardless of how good or bad you are over all. Hashem is not “mevater” on any Mitzvah or aveirah. By Reshaim, Hashem often rewards them in this world for their Mitzvos because every Mitzvah must be rewarded, and this way He won’t “have to (kaviyahol)” reward them in Olam Haba. By Tzadikim, Hashem often punishes them in this world, so that they won’t have to go to gehenom.
Every little bad thing that happens to you can act as a kapara for your aveiros so that you won’t have to get gehinom. It is brought down that even if you reach into your pocket for one type of coin and bring out a different type of coin, the little bit of suffering that you feel can be a kapara for your aveiros.
Also, before you get too nervous about gehinom, remember that you can do teshuva for EVERYTHIING!!! (even letting your knees and elbows show, happygirlygirl)
Joe,
A neshoma is a part of Hashem
Gehennom is the separation of the neshoma from its source (that could manifest itself in different ways)
Joe you’ve been asking the question, what do you think it is?
Moshe emes vesoraso emes
Joseph: “The gehenom both of you described sounds pretty easy on reshaim like Hitler and Arafat.”
Not so sure about that. Hard as it is to believe, they have Neshamas too, and in the World of Truth, their Neshamas also suffer when they realize how they have destroyed themselves.
It doesn’t sound so bad because we don’t understand what it means for a Neshama to suffer at the realization of how it has distanced itself from its Source (Hashem), but it is much worse than all of the suffering in this world put together (even worse than having a fly in your ear, and that is pretty bad!). That’s why we want to try to avoid it!
In any case, I wonder if there is a difference between the type of punishment given to complete reshaim who have no cheilik in olam haba and the type given to those people who require a tikkun before receiving their reward.
However you slice it, every type of Gehinom is really bad and something to be avoided at all costs!!!
I heard in the name of R’ Avigdor Miller TZATZAL: Gan Eden and Gehinom are the same place. You are in a shiur and the break is at 1:00 PM. The clock is stopped at 12:55 PM. To some it is Gan Eden; to others Gehinom!
I once hear that they are both the same place and it’s an all-you-can-eat buffet, except no one has elbows. The tzadikim help each other eat and enjoy it, while the reshoim starve because they aren’t willing to help each other.
Meno: That is actually a Mashal that originated in Christian sources. It might be a good and meaningful Mashal, but it’s definitely not what Gan Eden and Gehinnom actually are.
Sam2 – really? Do you know for sure that the ORIGINAL ORIGIN is christian and not Jewish? I’m just curious, because I had thought it was of Jewish origin, but I really have no clue.
In any case, it’s just a mashal, and not even a real mashal. In a real mashal, every word is true and represents something real. For example, in a mashal about a king, the nimshal will tell us that there really is a king, but the King is really Hashem and not a flesh and blood king. In this “mashal”, I don’t think there is an exact parallel/nimshal. I think it is just meant as a nice idea to teach us something, which it succeeds in doing (although perhaps, if it really is of christian origin, it should not be used).
The basic idea is that we create our own Gan Eden or Gehinnom through our own actions.
The idea from Rav Avigdor Miller quoted by iacisrmma above is a more precise definition of Gan Eden, since Gan Eden really is about learning Torah and getting close to Hashem.
It is true in this world as well. You can have Gan Eden in Olam Hazeh if you appreciate Limud Torah and doing Mitzvos. I learned that that is why it is called Olam Haba (the world that IS coming), since we already start creating and experiencing it in THIS world when we learn Torah, do Mitzvos and create a relationship with Hashem. (I think the source might be the Maharal).
RAMBAM PIRUSH MISHNAYOS SANHEDRIN CH 10: [#PAA]
????? ????, ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ??? ??? ?????
?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???, ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????, ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????????, ?????? ?????? ???, ?????? ???????, ????? ????? ??? ????. ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???????, ???????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???????, ???????? ??????. ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????, ???????? ????? ???????????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????.
??? ????????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ????????. ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????: ???? ???? ??????? ???, ??????? ??????, ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ?????. ????? ?????, ??? ??????, ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? [=????]. ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ??????. ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????, ???????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????.
??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ??? ????, ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ????, ????? ????? ??? ???? ???. ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????. ??????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ???????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??????.
??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ???, ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????, ???? ?????, ????? ???? ??????? ????, ?????? ????????, ????? ???? ?????? [=??????] ???????????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???. ????? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ????, ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??, ??? ?????. ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ??????: ?? ?????? ??????? ??????, ???? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????.
??? ?????? ??? ????, ?????? ???????? ???? ????, ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????????? ?????, ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????, ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????.
[??] ????? ?? ??? [??] ??????, ?? ????? ?? ?????, ?? ????? ?? ?? ???: ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??? ??????, ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??.
??? ?? ??????? ??? ????, ????? ????????: ???? ????? ?????, ????????? ?? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???, ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????, ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ????? ????, ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??.
???? ?????? ???? ??, ????? ?? ???? ???? ????????? ??, ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ??.
[????:]
????? ???? ??? ????? ????, ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??, ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???. ??? ???? ?? ???: ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??, ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??????. ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????????? ??.
[????? ??????:] ??? ?? ?????. ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????, ?????: “????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?????.” ??? ?????? ?? ????. ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? “??? ????” (????? ?”? ?”?), ????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???.
??????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? (???? ?”? ?”?): “?? ???? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ????? ????? ???”. ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ??, ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???, ??? ??????? ????, ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ??. ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????. ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???. ?????? ???, ?????? ?????? ???????.
[?????:]
??? ????? ?? ?? ??????, ?????? ???? ????????? ????? ?????? ????????? ?????? ????? ?????. ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????, ???????? ??????????????? ??????? ??????????? ????????? ???????. ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? (???? ?”? ?”?), ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????????.
???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????, ???? ?? ??? ???? ????, ??? ?????????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????. ????? ???? ???? ????: “??? ??? ??????” ?”?? ???? ????”, ?? ????????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????, ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????. ???? ????? ?????, ??? ????????????????? ?? ??????, ????? ?????????? ?????? ???, ???????????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ????. ??????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ???????????, ?? ???????????? ??????????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???, ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????. ???????? ????????? ??? ?????, ?????????? ????? ?? ?????, ????? ??? “????? ?????? ???????”, ??? ?????? ????? (???? ?”? ??”?).
???? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????????? ????? ????? ?????? ????, ??? ??? ???? ??????. ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ???????????? ?????, ???? ??????? ???? ????, ??????????? ?????? ?????. ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? (????? ?’ ?”?): “????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????, ????? ??? ???? ?? ????”.
[???? ??? ??? ????? ??????][?????]
???? ???? ???? ????, ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ????? ????????:
[=??], ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????, ?? ????? ?????????? ???????!
????? ?????? ???????? ????, ?? ?????? ????? ???????, ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ????; ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ??. ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???????? ????????, ??????? ???? ?’ ????? ?????????? ??! ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? (????? ? ?): “?????? ??????????? ??? ???? ????????? ????????, ????????? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ??????? ????????? ??????”. ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ???????????????????? ???? ??? ??????, ??????: “?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”.
???? ?? ?????? ??? ???????, ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??????. ??? ???, ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ??????! ??? ???? (???? ?? ?): “??? ?????? ???????? ?????????????, ??????? ????? ?????????”. ?? ????? ??????: ??? ??? ?????? ????????? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???????????. ??? ?? ??????????? ??? ?????? ????, ???????? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ????, ?? ?? ????? ?????, ??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? “?????” ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????.
???????? ???????????? ?? ???? ?? ??, ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????????, ?????? ???? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ???????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????. ??? ???? ???????? ???? ?????????????, ???????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????, ???????????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? [=??? ?? ??????], ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????????????? ???? ?? ???. ???? ????? ????? ????????? [=?????], ????? ????, ????? ???? ???????, ?? ??? ??? ??????????? ?????? ???? ???? ????.
???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????? ???????, ???????????????? ?????? ???????, ??? ??? ????? ???????, ????????????? ??????????. ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????????? ?? ????! ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???????, ????? ??? ??????????.
[=??? ??? ?????]
?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? (???? ? ?): “???????? ?????? ??????????, ???????? ???????? ??????????”. ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? “????” ??? ???? ????????????? ?? ????????????, ?? ????? ????. ???? ???? (?????? ?? ??): “???????? ???? ????? ??????” ???’. ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ??????, ???? ?? ???? ????.
????????? ??????????? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ???, ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????????, ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? (????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????)? ???? ???? ????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ?????, ??? ?????????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??????! ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????, ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???, ???? ????. ??? ???? ?????? ????? (????? ?”? ?”?) ?????? ???? “???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??????” (??”? ?? ??) ???? ???? ???, ??? ?? ????? “?????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????? ???????? ???????” (??). ??? “??? ?????????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????” (?? ??) ???? ?????? ???? ??? (?”? ?’ ?”?). ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? “??? ???” (?”? ?”? ?”?), ??? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????. ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? “??? ???” (??????? ?”? ?”?), ????? ????.
[???? ?????? ???????][?????]
???? ??? ???? ??? ??????????????? ??.
[=????]
????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ??? ??????????? ??? ???????. ??? ???????? ??????? ?? ???????, ???? ??????, ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????.
???? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ??? ???????? ?? ??????????, ?????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????. ???? ????? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ????, ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????.
????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ????, ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????????????, ?????? ????? ???. ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???, ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ???????????????????? ??? ???. ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????. ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ????, ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???, ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???. ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??????, ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???, ????????? ??????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?? ????.
[?? ????]
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.