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I’m just trying to say it is subjective. Unrelated, (but related to the thread) what is your reading of ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ? ???? ?? Specific case or across the board? I actually see that it could be across the board only bshas hadchak.
Of course taste is subjective; I’m just saying my opinion.
It does seem to say that the heter should generally be applied only b’sha’as had’chak.
Here is a link to that teshuvah:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=922&st=&pgnum=205
Agav, the magiah there refers to ??? ?’ ????? ?”? as saying that people should be machmir on a Jew seeing the milking when the price is similar and it’s not inconvenient; however, unless I missed it, I only see him saying that about the cheese shailah he deals with there, not the milk shailah.
Does anyone see where I missed something in that teshuvah?
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=239&hilite=
hey guys- there is a cholov treifah issue in cholov stam milk
This was discussed here:
Weird, but I don't know if this has any halachic implication
and probably several other places.
I never said that Hershey bars are better than cholov Yisroe’l candy bars, just that they’re not the same, and having grown up on the taste of Hershey’s, I miss it.
They ARE better than most, IMO, except for most Schmerlings products. Check out the ingredient panel for why. More chocolate and more milk and less chemicals and sweeteners.
And I’m not criticizing that point, just saying that it is subjective. Some may enjoy cholov yisrael bars better than Hersheys.
DaasYochid- The editor throws this in, in parenthesis (besides other things he adds in parenthesis):
????”? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???????; ???’ ??? ??????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????
Yes, that’s what I’m talking about (first sentence).
I agree with the second sentence.
So the editor says that when he says “????? ??????” he means baalai nefesh
What are ???? ???? I quote from the Toronto ?????:
?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??
How about translating that, DaasYochid?
Let there be an increase in [the number of] those who fear (lit. tremble for) the words of the Torah that will purchase this (Jewishly supervised) milk.
The view of Reb Moshe regarding the Milk of the companies:
?. ?”? ???? ???”?, ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”?:
“… ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?”? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????????
?. ?”? ??”? ???”?, ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”?:
“…???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??”
?. ?’ ???? ???”?, ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”?:
“…???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??????”
?. ?? ????? ???? ??????, ???? ??? ????? ????????, ?????? ????? ?? ?? ????
“??? ???? ??? ?????????? ?????????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????. ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???, ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ?????”
?. ?? ??”? ??”?, ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”?:
“…???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????????? ???? ???? ??? ???”? ??? ?”? ???? ?????? ???”? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???”? ????? ??? ?????? ??????”
?. ?”? ???? ??? ???”?, ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?”? ??’ ?”?, ??? ???”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ?’
“??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???, ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ???.
????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ???????.
???? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ????? ???”? ?????? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????”
?. ?’ ??”? ??”?, ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??:
” ???? ??? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”? ????”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?”? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????????? ??? ?? ??? ?????????? ???????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? “
?. ?”? ??? ???”?, ??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??:
“… ????? ?????????? ????????? ?? ????? ???????? ??”? ???”? ?’ ???? ?”? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?????? …. ????? ?? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ???… “
How did Rabbi Forst shlit”a get hold of the teshuva?
in weinfeld letter he writes to be machmir to get cholov shel yisrael, not like the magiah of igros moshe chelek 8.
edited
And I think that Rabbi Weinfeld’s teshuva contradicts Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita’s opinion of his father’s opinion. Also, Rav Dovid and Rav Reuven Feinstein signed their names on the hakdamah of Igros Moshe 8
Still, how did Rabbi Forst shlit”a get a hold of it?
There are some teshuvos in ‘? which they have told talmidim are not accurate.
In R’ Forsts ???, it says, above the ?????:
(??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???-???? ???”?).
So, to answer your second question, it had been printed once prior to R’ Forst reprinting it.
Here it is, on page 6 (moderator, please allow. It’s just a PDF of the ????? ??????, mentioned above).
Actually, Rav Doivd and Rav Reuven Feinstein and Rav Moshe Tendler did not sign on the hakdomoh rather the hakdomoh before the hakdomoh.
How did you find that old issue of ????? ?????? ??? ?????
I googled ????? ?????? ???”?, and with lots of siyata dishmaya, found it.
Now, the question is, how did the ????? ?????? get hold of the teshuva?
They got it from R’ Forst’s sefer.
🙂
It’s worth noting that it was published under the auspices of the Debriciner Rav zt”l, a huge gaon in his own right.
A good thing to find out is how Rav Moshe tz”l himself was ???? for his family (I heard he was meikel) and how available was Chalav Yisrael on the Lower East Side and how much was it and if Rav Moshe tz”l started to use it for his family when it became easier to get it on the Lower East Side.
on pg. 39 there is a picture of the actual handwritten letter of reb moshe.
as far as reb moshe’s personal hanhaga he writes mefurosh “??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????”
DaasYochid-I don’t know what you do with Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a who says in the name of his father that chalav stam is permissible even in a place where it is readily available.
It is permissable; that doesn’t mean it’s recommended or equal to CY. Rav Dovid himself, I am told, today is makpid. Of course, that could be because of the treifos shailah. Unless he still costumes cholov stam products aside from milk, which would mean it’s the supervision issue.
I happen to think the family, and perhaps close talmidim, have a reason to consume CS, to demonstrate his psak, but that doesn’t apply to everyone else.
The point is that acc. to him one can drink chalav stam even where chalav yisrael is readily available. Clearly not “only ???? ????”. Rav Dovid shlit”a does say that if the cs and cy are both equal in price and quality you should take cy.
jt-
vadai reb moshe himself was makpid, and he vadai wrote that only bshaas hadchak to be meikil. ??? ?? ????
I saw the picture of the teshuva in the ????? ?????? but that teshuva is not in the Igros. How do you deal with Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a’s who holds in the name of his father that it is mutar even when cy is readily available?
Lying about games involving cholov stam is always assur.
Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a’s holding in the name of his father that it is mutar even when cy is readily available is not in the Igros either.
And you keep asking for a source for the story, but what difference does it make? It’s not in the Igros.
Also, where in Igros does it say that something which is not in the Igros is wrong?
And if you think that teshuvah is wrong, why did he write it?
Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a’s holding in the name of his father that it is mutar even when cy is readily available is not in the Igros either.
Right. I consider it on the level of being in the Igros. It is his own son.
And you keep asking for a source for the story, but what difference does it make? It’s not in the Igros.
Why would Rav Moshe tz”l recount the story in the Igros?
Also, where in Igros does it say that something which is not in the Igros is wrong?
There are teshuvas outside the Igros that can be different than in the Igros. The one’s in the Igros are usually the ones we follow.
And if you think that teshuvah is wrong, why did he write it?
It is not wrong. We just don’t know the circumstance he was writing in and everything.
I consider it on the level of being in the Igros. It is his own son.
I consider the letter to R’ Weinfeld on the level of being in the Igros. It is his own self.
And it is quite clear that there is no special circumstance, rather, he’s stating the obvious.
lgros is a sefer of teshuvos, this letter is not a teshuva, rather it is merely a psak halacha therefore there is no reason for it to be in igros.
it IS in igros that reb moshe himself was machmir, and it Is in igros that one should spend more to be machmir, ???? ?? ????? ??? ????.
Is there a confirmed report that reb dovid HOLDS BSHEIM HIS FATHER that it is muttar lechatchila. and does anyone know how he explains what it says in igros?
I asked Rav Dovid Frankel, his close talmid. And he confirmed with me. He did say that Rav Dovid shlit”a said if they are both equal, get cy. Where in the Igros does it say pay more?
The Igros Moshe is full of psak halachos.
??”? ??”? ?”? ??’ ??
although he is talking about a school he continues to say “????? ???? ???? ??????” meaning that bnei torah should be machmir even if it costs more.
I don’t know of any psak halacha that is in igros that was written after a teshuva was already written. once a teshuva was written there is nothing to be moisif in a short letter
He told mosdos to pay more, and individuals in the letter to R’ Weinfeld, which was in his own name, so is at least as good as someone else in his name.
Who is R’ Dovid Frankel? Is he related to R’ Yitzchak Frankel?
His name is Rabbi Yitzchok Dovid Frankel, rav in Agudath Yisrael of the Five Towns in Cedarhurst. He is the author of the Machat Shel Yad.
What did he confirm with you?
1)That Rav Dovid Feinstein holds in his father’s name that it is permissible to eat chalav stam even where chalav yisrael is readily available.
2) If the chalav stam and chalav yisrael are both equal in price and quality, you should definitely only get the chalav yisrael.
3)Despite the teshuvas that indicate contradictory to the above, Rav Dovid shlit”a still maintains from his father that it is permissible even where it is readily available.
comlink-X, m”haycheetaiysuhh it would be assur?1
Sure, if the orice is substantially more. Otherwise, how does he explain the teshuvos?
When is the price equal? I’ve never seen such a thing, and with more supervision required, it would be very surprising to see it.
How does R’ Dovid, according to R’ Frankel, explain the teshuvos?
Rav Frankel told me that he asked Rav Dovid shlit”a about the teshuvas and Rav Dovid did not explain them, he just repeated his view that his father said one may get cs even where cy is readily available. Rav Frankel told me that basically they don’t reflect a longstanding opinion told many times orally.
Again, DY, how do you not hold this is a case of tzarich iyun?
??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???, ??? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ?????
DaasYochid-This is from the Rabbi Weinfeld teshuva. We don’t know what Rav Moshe tz”l meant when he said “??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???”? How can you know the price and bother range he meant?
I assume he knew the price differential. The price differential today is less than when he wrote the teshuvah, which was before Goldman’s started competing.
So, although he didn’t give specifics, it’s safe to say that it would certainly apply today as a general rule, at least in the NY/NJ area.
Of course, some individuals may be in such a financial state that they are justified in buying the cheaper c.s. even according to R’ Moshe.
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