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I don’t think they’d be assur, just as exaggerations like
“I’ve told you a thousand times” are not, because it is known
that it is not intended as the truth (although in this case, it is known only that it is not necessarily the truth), but do you
think they would be bad chinuch? (Or do you think they might be assur?)
You discussed something similar once, with a fascinating psak from R’ Yackov zt”l [which you somehow decided we don’t hold of]. (If your subtitle isn’t just a joke)
I’ll post a link.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/weirdness-factor-in-books#post-529113
Why would you suspect it might be assur, that you question this?
There is possible proof that chalav stam is mutar not only bshas hadchak.
There is possible proof that chalav stam is mutar not only bshas hadchak.
Right. One of the main teshuvas that is used as proof that chalav stam is mutar only bshas hadchak (dire circumstances) is YD 4:5 but that teshuva seems to be talking of a specific case in a specific circumstance, a community (Toronto) was thinking of switching to chalav stam after keeping chalav yisrael and Rav Moshe tz”l wrote that you shouldn’t do it unless it is bshas hadchak. How does that compare to other cities that were keeping chalav stam before Rav Moshe tz”l gave his heter.
Another proof is the teshuva from Rabbi Forst shlit”a printed in the back of Hilchos Kashrut (I believe, can someone confirm) that is from Rav Moshe tz”l to Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey saying that it is not proper to be meikel if one can get chalav yisrael with just a little extra cost and bother. But that teshuva was written in ???? and yet it is not in the Igros. Why not?
And an important blow to the chalav stam bshas hadchak opinion is that, I believe, Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a holds in the name of his father that chalav stam is mutar meikar hadin.
(Mods, it is a clean link, if you can’t post it, please post post without link)
sorry, we don’t post links
Don’t rely on me when I say that Rav Dovid shlit”a holds chalav stam is mutar mikar hadin. Contact him directly (or a close talmid).
And as always contact your own Rav (From me, not mods)
Jewish Thinker – Did you mean this thread? I’m sure the Mods will be happy to remove them from here and replace them in their intended location…
More research is needed on the chalav stam bshas hadchak issue.
Don’t rely on me when I say that Rav Dovid shlit”a holds chalav stam is mutar mikar hadin. Contact him directly (or a close talmid).
Not everything that R’ Dovid holds of is the same as his father held.
I don’t know if it’s forbidden, but it’s definitely bad for children.
I don’t believe in telling children things that are untrue, even as jokes, because then they will not know when to trust you.
Dash-Your right. But I think this one Rav Dovid shlit”a says in the name of his father.
Comlink-X- I hope you don’t mind that I hijacked your thread with my chalav stam posts. If you do, I’ll stop.
I’m sure nobody minds that you hijacked a thread that had pretty much finished itself off, but what made you choose to post a series of “chalav stam” posts on this thread; wouldn’t it be more suitable to hijack, say, the Parah Aduma thread?
What games are you talking about?
More research is needed on the chalav stam bshas hadchak issue.
Or as they say in halachik literature, ?”?.
Do you think it is ?”? or ??”??
Neither
So what do you think?
Anyone hold it is ??”??
If a game involves lying about chalav yisrael you shouldn’t play.
There is more to it, but here is the basics:
Chalav Stam Bshas Hadchak Proofs:
1)YD 4:5
2)Teshuva to Rabbi Weinfeld
Chalav Stam Meikear Hadin Proofs:
1)Rav Dovid Feinsein shlit”a (on the Matzav website (search “Matzav Rav Dovid Feinsein chalav yisroel”) it does say one should get chalav yisroel if it easy to get, but the terminology “bshas hadchak” is not there; it is more compatible with Rabbi Weinfeld’s teshuva)
Chalav Stam Meikar Hadin Rebuttals:
1a)YD 4:5 is specific case in specific circumstance
2a)Teshuva to Rabbi Weinfeld is not in the Igros
Moderators, if you don’t mind and if I get Comlink-X’s approval can we switch the title of this thread to “Games involving lying/Chalav Stam”?
The thrust of R’ Moshe’s teshuvos in the Igros point to the heter not being recommended unless it’s sha’as had’chak, the teshuva to R’ Weinfeld merely enforces it, and there could be any number of reasons it wasn’t printed in Igros, but l’maaseh, he wrote it.
That the heter should only be used b’sha’as had’chak, and that it’s muttar meikar hadin, are not mutually exclusive.
Mods-Hilarious!
DY-For the purposes of this discussion, meikar hadin means not bshas hadchak.
Where in the Igros Moshe does Rav Moshe tz”l say only bshas hadchak? YD 4:5 is a specific case. That is how Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn reads the teshuva. (See the Yad Moshe) So now you are left with a teshuva outside the Igros. That teshuva does not say “bshas hadchak” just “not proper” and one “needs” to get chalav stam. Now, I am not 100% clear on what Rav Dovid shlit”a says his father’s opinion is. But he clearly does not say “bshas hadchak”.
There are many levels of sha’as had’chak, ranging from slight inconvenience or increased cost, to choleh. I don’t think R’ Moshe only wanted people to rely in the heter for a sha’as had’chak on the level of choleh where there’s no alternative.
However, the fact that R’ Moshe intentionally (according to R’ Belsky) made sure to add “baal nefesh yachmir” to every teshuva, plus feels that mosdod hachinuch should be makpid even at great cost, plus, despite his great anavah, writes that he personally was makpid, is a strong indication that where there’s no or little extra cost or inconvenience, he feels one should not rely on the heter.
That just proves a baal nefesh should be machmir. That a mosdod hachinuch should be machmir. And he was encouraging people to keep chalav stam when he personally wrote he is machmir. Where is your proof that if it costs a little more one should be machmir?
Common sense (and the generally accepted halachic approach) dictates that when something is halachically superior, one should incur a slight loss for it.
The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld proves that this is the case. The fact that it wasn’t printed in Igros is entirely irrelevant.
“???? ?????” is actually a bit stronger than what I’m saying.
The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld proves that this is the case. The fact that it wasn’t printed in Igros is entirely irrelevant.
No. It was written in 1956. That could easily make it into the Igros. There is something a little bit strange about why it is not in the Igros. I’m not saying it is completely immaterial, but there is a pretty good question about why it is not in the Igros.
What percentage of teshuvos that he wrote made it into the Igros Moshe?
When Rav Moshe tz”l puts it in the Igros, it is considerd paskening for the whole world. It doesn’t really matter what percentage. Finding a teshuva outside the Igros is not always so relevant. There is a mystery here. I am not saying Vdai that the teshuva is not important, I am concluding ?”?.
I’m not sure why you would think that a teshuva he wrote, which was printed, just not in the I”M, is less than relevant. Do you have inside knowledge of what the criteria were for being included or excluded? Maybe it was excluded for the simple reason that there was no chiddush there.
Right. As I said, ?”?.
If there’s no reason to doubt the veracity of the teshuva, what further iyun is required?
I can say ?”? about anything, really. Maybe Rav Moshe assered cholov stam, and he meant the opposite of what he wrote. ?”?.
?”? means when things seem to contradict or more information is needed to finish the puzzle. In this case, we have reason to doubt the teshuva, bec. it is not in the Igros and how does it fit with “baal nefesh machmir”. Also, I don’t know if this is the way Rav Dovid shlit”a says his father’s opinion is. It could be. But it may not be.
Maybe the calendar is wrong, and Pesach isn’t until next week. ?”?.
DY- Everything makes sense. Pesach is this evening. That is not true by chalav stam as I wrote in my above post.
There is no reason to doubt the teshuva. He wrote it. Not being in the I”M means nothing. There’s no stirah to baal nefesh yachmir. He wrote that when it was very difficult to get CY. When it became easier, he wrote tzorich l’hasig. The halacha didn’t change, the circumstances did.
Rav Dovid may hold differently than his father about tzorich l’hasig. That doesn’t change what Rav Moshe wrote and allowed to be published. Nor does that teshuva make cholov stam assur, it just says explicitly what Rav Moshe held should be done l’maaseh under easier circumstances. ???”?. It makes sense.
Well, I disagree with you that not being in the Igros is immaterial.
Rav Dovid shlit”a, I believe, says this in the name of his father. (I’m not 100% sure what he does say).
DY-Chag Kosher Vsoemach
Thanks, you too.
You are all replying to the OP who wrote “Lying about games involving cholov stam”
I have no idea what he wants or is asking i cant make out a question or a comment am i missing something?
Eric55, the original title (which you can see by looking at the address bar) had nothing to do with cholov stam. For some reason, Jewish Thinker started discussing it here, and a mod altered the title.
Well, I miss Hershey bars since I started keeping Cholov Yisroe’l. They are made with real milk. The Jewish chocolate, even the expensive ones, are made with milk powder and it’s just not the same. I miss good, cheap chocolate.
MRS PLONY- What you are saying is subjective. Someone may like chocolate with milk powder better than liquid milk. There are many delicious chalav yisrael brand chocolate bars, which one may like more than Hershey.
AFAIK, the only product which doesn’t have an equivalent (or close) version in CY is ice cream.
I disagree with you on that one, DaasYochid.
Do you think CY ice cream is just as good, or that other products are also significantly better? If so, which ones?
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