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AJ: If someone would invite 9 friends over every Sunday to play Bingo on his dining room table and it is against no regulation, bylaw or law then there can be no regulation, bylaw or law prohibiting that same person from inviting those same 9 people over every Sunday to engage in Chriistian prayer in his living room.
If someone would invite 9 friends over three times a day to play Bingo, Solitare and the final daily visit eat a friendly dinner on his dining room table and it is against no regulation, bylaw or law then there can be no regulation, bylaw or law prohibiting that same person from inviting those same 9 people over three times a day to engage in Jewish prayer in his living room.
No regulation, law or private bylaw can treat a religious prayer in ones home worse than those same regulations, laws and/or bylaws would permit a social gathering, gathering of friends to eat, shmooze or play board games in the home. If one is the latter is permitted on a regularly recurring basis (or without any enforcement against such social activities), then so must the former be permitted.
I heard from a member of YIDB that a email went out to the membership saying that the letter spilt the kehillah and lman hasholem please disregard the letter
Dear Common,
If so, we should end the conversation on this thread.Joseph, co-ops and condos are not subject to the first amendment.
Zoning boards are subject to the first amendment, but that doesn’t require them to treat religion better than any other activity; they can prevent prayer groups so long as they’re using a rule that applies equally to every comparable group.
Of more concern for zoning boards is RLUIPA, which does require special status for religion. Or if the state has a RFRA, that would have the same effect. Co-ops and condos are not subject to either of those. A co-op or condo could, in principle, ban you from davening in your own home, unless that state has a law that says otherwise.
Milhouse, is it your belief that the board of a co-op or condo can enact a bylaw prohibiting residents from praying in their home? Can a co-op or condo permit Christian prayer but prohibit Jewish prayer? Could they only permit Christians to purchase a residence in the co-op or condo but prohibit Jews from joining?
Regarding your second point, I specifically pointed out that they cannot treat religion worse than they treat non-religious activities. As such, if they permit 9 friends to enter a residence to play poker, shmooze or have a party, they cannot prohibit 9 friends from entering a residence to pray.
The problem is if we undermime the Rav in one thing, he is being undermined in other things.
Reb Eliezer, Maybe just Maybe the Rav is being bossed around by the board to do the dirty work, if you have any friends in around Deerfield ask around
Can a co-op or condo permit Christian prayer but prohibit Jewish prayer? Could they only permit Christians to purchase a residence in the co-op or condo but prohibit Jews from joining?
Actually, if its bylaws define it as a Christian community it probably could do that, since its free exercise and/or RFRA rights would trump the anti-discrimination laws. At least, that’s what Hobby Lobbywould suggest.
Milhouse, is it your belief that the board of a co-op or condo can enact a bylaw prohibiting residents from praying in their home?
Yes, absolutely, unless the state has a law preventing it.
Can a co-op or condo permit Christian prayer but prohibit Jewish prayer? Could they only permit Christians to purchase a residence in the co-op or condo but prohibit Jews from joining?
No, that would violate the law against discrimination in housing.
No, that would violate the law against discrimination in housing.
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Actually, if its bylaws define it as a Christian community it probably could do that, since its free exercise and/or RFRA rights would trump the anti-discrimination laws. At least, that’s what Hobby Lobbywould suggest.Your two responses contradict each other. But, in any event, I’m not referring to coop/condo that self-defines as part of a specific religion. My question was more if they allow all religions with the exception of one specific religion, which their bylaws state in not permitted to be practiced.
As such, housing laws would make that illegal. And those same laws would make illegal banning 9 friends from coming to one’s residence for prayer while at the same time permitting those same 9 friends from coming to that same residence for playing board games, shmoozing and/or partying — IF they don’t pray together.
As such, housing laws would make that illegal. And those same laws would make illegal banning 9 friends from coming to one’s residence for prayer while at the same time permitting those same 9 friends from coming to that same residence for playing board games, shmoozing and/or partying — IF they don’t pray together.
No, they wouldn’t. “No prayer” is a neutral rule, and a private organization has every right to make such a rule, unless there’s a state or local law that says otherwise.
Milhouse: I’m positing that virtually every state has housing laws that prohibit an owner, coop or condo from prohibiting a renter or owner from engaging in religious activity in their home while allowing comparable non-religious activity.
The scenario I described would be no different than if a landlord, coop or condo promulgated a rule or bylaw allowing all prayers except Jewish prayers. Or to permit wearing any religious symbol or clothing — except yarmulkas and tzitzis. Or, for that matter, to prohibit any resident from practicing any religious activity, of any religion, in the privacy of their home.
Milhouse: I’m positing that virtually every state has housing laws that prohibit an owner, coop or condo from prohibiting a renter or owner from engaging in religious activity in their home while allowing comparable non-religious activity.
No, that is not true. Some states have such laws. Most states do not.
The scenario I described would be no different than if a landlord, coop or condo promulgated a rule or bylaw allowing all prayers except Jewish prayers.
No, it is nothing like that. Such a rule would be a violation of the federal fair housing laws. A neutral no-praying rule would not be.
These housing complexes are run by a board that is elected by owners of apartments in the building. Since there are a large number of frum owners in these buildings, it is possible that davening with a minyan may be legal as the board decides what the rules are. Also most homeowners don’t vote in these elections so it easier to take over the board similar to school boards in East Ramapo and make it legal. Also since it’s common to have a minyan in the house when one is sitting shiva and there is a large number of frum tenants in these building all of whom are seniors it is quite possible that it’s permitted.
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